Submarine Project

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by kc135delta, Jun 19, 2006.

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  1. bntii
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    bntii Senior Member

    When you say at a depth of 4,6m, is this the depth to the top of the hull? At what sea state will you be able to operate in when cruising at this depth of 4,6m? And what is the snorkel length for this operating depth?

    Thank you
     
  2. wellmer
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    wellmer New Member

    ...yes, kind of minimum to get the benefit of "submerged locomotion" i am going for "leave coffee cup on the table" cruising in storm conditions - some 10m total snorkel for a 18m boat should do the job. - We will see when the current boat goes to sea trial...
     
  3. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    Somehow, lots of corned beef and water doesn't quite cut it for me ;) Need to pull into port for fresh meat and veggies now and then!

    I'm trying to figure out from post #180 if you're talking about a flexible snorkel with a float on the surface, or a snorkel at the top of a rigid mast. Also, what's being used as a plenum- ie, is the cabin isolated pressure-wise from the engine room? I recall hearing that some D-E subs, when running on snorkel, can drive the crew nuts with sudden pressure changes as waves momentarily choke off the snorkel, leaving the engine to draw air from the interior and thus dropping the ambient pressure momentarily.

    A rigid snorkel mast would seem an ideal place to mount a few heavily ruggedized HD video camera in a waterproof housing.... run the feeds down to a set of big LCD flat-panels in the cockpit for a virtual view of the surface. You could watch the storm tossing all the boats around while you roll smoothly back and forth a couple of degrees. That'd be cool.
     
  4. wellmer
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    wellmer New Member

    Plan A for the 18m sub is rigid snorkel mast due to simplicity and high camera point.

    Plan B flexible snorkel...

    Plan C Diesel electric tandem configuration...

    I tested all 3 concepts with the prototype and all worked fine.

    Pressure, fire, sound, prove separation of engine room and cabin is a "must" for comfort cruising i will have it.

    The popping ears in ww2 subs where due to the military need to keep the snorkel low to avoid detection - sticking it out several meter is not a military option - but it IS on a civil sub.
     
  5. Hondaen
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Hondaen Junior Member

    Hello

    I`m a ex-submariner engineer. I have worked on german buildt diesel electric submarines for years.

    Design of submarines, I can see that there is alot of qualified personel in here that come up with good remarks, for obivous reasons.

    Regarding only the technical, I would say:

    Life supporting systems. You live and breathe in a artifical environment. Every gas and liquid in the sub is going to be inside you. Leakage from engines, hydraulic fluids, dishwasher soap, painting and so on can be dangerous for your health. Good luck with that. If you can smell it, it is a gas. And potential harmfull for you.

    Air. You need expensice multistage compressors for regulating unside sub pressure. Chemicals and gases need to be removed from the air. Co2 buildup inside your body is harmfull. My experience, in a 60meter long sub, C02 buildup happens very fast. You live normaly with 1-1.5% C02 in the air. That make you tired, headace, confused and so on. It is toxic. And C02 is just one of many things.

    Propulsion. Batteries need to be changed every 5-10 years. Realy expensive. And they require heavy maintainance.

    Drifting propulsionsystems, life support systems, trimming systems, navigation... snorting.. everything require a very well working and expensive crew. You can not hire billy bob at the supermarked.

    What I`m trying to say is.....

    Submarine environment is like living in a prison with extremely hostile environment. It is no place for mankind. Esp. not for a billionare pleasuretrip. Hell, you need to pay me a billion for just working in that environment. Been there done that. Never again.

    You live in tight places, often with very many people. Just to live so dense, require persons with special personalitys. Imagine "Big Brother" TV series, now in a cold and dark cottage. Good luck.

    When I sailed subs, I was on the most comfortable sub in the world. Still, at harbour we stayed on hotel, for a good reason. People dont want to work on a sub for several years, for very good reasons.

    60-70 meters below, It is quite dark. What do you need windows for? You cant se **** anyway. And what if the water is slightly poluted? If you can se 1 meter inhead of you, if you are lucky.

    Just the navigation require spechal navigation instruments. It is harder to be a navigator in our subs that becomeing a fighter pilot. Go figure.

    Building a private sub? I can understand if you want a sub that can be semi-submerged, that let you see coral reefs and so on for shallow water for short periods of the time.

    Insurance? Who will take the respons. for you, crew and your ship? Nobody, unless you get your sub ceritified. Probably costing as much as the whole sub.

    But a large sub for deeper water? It is a silly dream inless you are good for several billions of $. Pitch black, cold, harmfull and dangerous.

    If you want to smugle, yes I can understand your motivation. But be avare of anti sub military systems. They use billions on listening stations, sonars and so on.

    Ex-submariner and engineer
     
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  6. wellmer
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    wellmer New Member

    I see that you worked with military submarines for years. So it is obviously difficult to think a little outside the "military submarine box".

    I do not plan months of uninterrupted submerged time that would bring up the atmosphere treatment trouble you are talking about.

    I do not plan to get away submerged in silence under battery after attack - as diesel electric military subs do - so there is no primary need for giant battery banks.

    Highly trained expensive crews of several dozens of crew members that operate weapon systems - in my concept there is no need for that.

    I do not plan months of submerged navigation like nuke subs - a yacht style GPS on the snorkel mast will do.

    No insurance for a boat that is basicly a prototype - insurance is for mainstream shipbuilding - a private boat is privat fun and private risk.

    The billion dollar - only if you plan a civil version of a military sub - my brand of submarine yachting is more economic than normal yachting - i tested this for many years ... no dream ... just numbers - less hull building cost, less engine cost, less locomotion cost, less yachting infrastructure cost, less vigilance cost, etc...

    Sorry i do not want to smuggle - i want to have a whale like yachting style - you really need to think outside the box...;)

    Keep in mind that my sub is THAT different from a military sub as motorized parachute is from a stealth bomber - one is for war - the other for fun - it looks like that many people have really a hard time to accept that as a fact...

    I really would like to discuss here a bit more - but i really need you to accept the fact that there is another brand of "submarine" than military - Just think in BEN FRANKLIN, Scuba diving, BOB, etc... etc... so all what comes to your mind as a "military submariner" does basically - not apply to my proyect.

    To begin we could start with a simple question - if you strip all weapon systems and military needs - how simple could a civilian submarine - in theory - be ?

    Would you consider a pressure resistant hull with buoyancy control a submarine?

    Is buoyancy control rocket science?

    Or lets go back to the father of all submarines - is Nautilus the biological equivalent of a submarine? -

    http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautilus

    What kind of "shell" would we need to navigate this way ?

    Cheers,
    Wil
    concretesubmarine.com
     
  7. Submarine Tom

    Submarine Tom Previous Member

    Wil,

    I just read the recent post from Hondaen and your response.

    You seem resilient to such negativity, I hope you truly are.

    I believe I "get" where you're coming from and I support your concept

    whole heartedly. At the same time, I believe I understand where Hondaen

    is coming from. I have an ex WWII acquaintance who was a submariner

    for years and he, like many others on this form, think's I'm nuts with my

    micro sub design. I have an engineering, design, marine, fabrication,

    SCUBA background and it never ceases to amaze me how close minded

    some engineers (and others) can be. I'd like to share my current (pun)

    design with you for feedback but find it impossible to post images on this

    forum so I'll send them to your web-site E'ddress if you would indulge me.

    All the best and keep up your dream,

    Tom
     
  8. Hondaen
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Hondaen Junior Member

    Submarine Tom:

    Ok, what you need to do is not put me into a box, for beeing close minded.

    This is a discussion forum. If you want blessings for your submarine project, go to your mom. I`m a engineer, a inventor and a ex-submariner. I deal with dreams all the time. Including people with dreams that have no future.

    "Reality check" of dreams, be used to critical voices. It is not fun telling dreamers with no clarity of knowhow, the truth.

    I`m critical and I`m not the only one. I have experience and I tell of problems that need to be solved. I havent even started. Submarines is science. You cant give a damn of gas analyzis equipment. Compressors for regulating pressure and so on. I can go on for ever.

    Ofcourse can a person build submarines that work OK. A saw a person from russia build a mini sub from the screap. It worked. In our naval base in norway, we have many WW II minisubs. Developed for one man, in order to mount explosives on nazi ships.

    I can give input for design ideas. I do not condemd this project. Then you take me all wrong.

    What I need to find out, is what this man realy wants: The design criteria.

    Ok, thats all captain Nemo.
     
  9. Hondaen
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    Hondaen Junior Member

    No, it is not.

    Ok, I need to find out your concept ;)

    If you are going to use GPS navigation, then you need a watertight gps antenna. You can not use a standard garmin antenna f.ex. Anyway, the antenna is a easy and cheap fix if you are crafty, but it need to withstand waterpressure. Becouse snorting, yes you will go deeper than you want. It is flying an aeroplane. But in adition, you need to handle various salt gehalts, temperatures, waves, swell, currents and so on. And they are all different at unlike depths. I had a full time job steering and trimming the sub. It is not easy.

    GPS signa, ofcourse, they only work above waterlevel. GPS signals are around 1.4GHz and penetrate water very porly. Once you go under, you loose track.

    In military subs, they use inertia navigation and waterspeed sensors. I.E. gyros that calculate the change in course, waterspeed calculate distance. It is computer aided.

    The use of sound is also an option. three sound source send out a sound at the same time. Calculate the time between them, when they reach you and you know where you are.

    Ok, I dont know where you live. But if you live in the US, I have heard about all those silly sues that accour. A woman "dried" her dog in a microwave oven at sued the company that made the oven. I can imagine, that you can be sued for killing somebody..

    If you are responseble for the death of your friends, becouse they used you sub, you can be sued by their family.

    Ok, good you have both feets on the ground :)

    At what deepts?

    You still deal with the same laws of physics as the rest of us. If you want to live, you ned the same basic things of a military sub. But in an el-cheapo version.

    You need to think about:

    Development
    Costs
    Powersources
    Materials (you cant use dangerouse paints, oils and so on. It goes into your
    body, even at short trips)
    Hull design. Military subs use special steel types.
    Knowhow. Are you able to calculate a safe hulldesign?
    Air tanks. you need air. big 300 bar tanks
    Several air compressors. (Backup)
    Air analyz equipment. O2, Co2 f.ex
    Gauges
    Galvanic currents
    Standard size hatches for rescue
    Propulsion engine (direct DC is safest, but converter drives are easyest)
    Boyancy systems
    Trim systems
    Steering systems
    engine management systems (starting a diesel under water require pretty good management)
    snorting management systems
    etc ;)

    No. But is a full time job at helm. If you go too deep or get problems, your dead, ofcourse.

    If you move forward, you need to trim for the selected speed. In a smal sub, you need to trim for people going back and forth. It is very difficoult find the correct boancy. You eiter go up. or down.. And when you find the magical setting, the temperature changes and whops, you need to trim again.

    [/QUOTE]

    I will follow your project. But keep in mind, if you fail in the basic design, youre proably dead.

    Have you controlled a sub before?
     
  10. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Thanks Hondaen for an in depth, realistic assesment of the realities of submarine travel. It was most enlightening.

    Over the last 6 months I have tried to emphasise the problems of "no insurance" to Wellmer. There are things nearly as bad as dying from drowning - like being sued by a shipping company as they plow into a 20 tonne lump of concrete laying at snorkelling depth.

    The other point you make so well is the constant job of navigation and steerage. On a yacht it is a time consuming job to keep sails, direction trimmed in two dimensions, imagine having to do that in three dimensions and not even having the joy of a view and the fresh air.

    Still - time will tell, and Wellmer is committed to the project. It will be an interesting story, if we get to hear the details of the voyages.
     
  11. Hondaen
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    Hondaen Junior Member

    Update

    I have looked at Wellmers website. He refers to norwegian oil plattforms. It happens to be that I work in that business.

    It is right that we use concrete for the legs in some platforms, like Troll and Sleipner.

    But, is has a cost. In Norwegian fjords, there are concrete buildups of imploding concrete legs for plattforms. We lost 700 million $ on the Sleipner A platform: http://www.ima.umn.edu/~arnold/disasters/sleipner.html

    What I say is, our best engineers did this error. Even if the concrete sizes was calculated with a huge safty margin, we got this disaster.

    I also saw your submarine design. Its a torpedo on steroids. A good fat one. A good hydrodynamic shape, buta pice of advice, bring pills for seasickness :) Snorting with that out in the open sea, it wil certainly roll.

    You will certainly use a diesel engine, diesel electric. Such submarines are slow under water. If they move fast, like 20+, you drain batteries in short time. I`ll bet your speed will be 3-5 knots crusing and 7-8 knots snorting. If youre good at the helm :)

    Some nuclear subs from the US travel intercontinental in 60+ knots submerged. A diesel electric, europe -> usa the trip will take 40-50 days and you need to refuel several times.
     
  12. kerosene
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    kerosene Senior Member

    Hondaen - I have been following this discussion and excuse my ignorance but what do you refer by snorting?

    Wellmer - all the best of luck with the project. However I do think that you mistake serious concerns and questions with pitch fork and torches. There have been very real and appropriate concerns raised.

    what I see (just as a normal civilian boat enthusiast - no experience with subs) round cross section will be very prone to rolling - fins might help with that.
    Snorkle - you have to be prepared to losing it. Sailboat get hit by other boats all the time and they are quite visible - both for eyes and radars. Submerged boat is practically invisible and someone plowing away your snorkel is bound to happen sooner or later. Obviously when you lose your snorkel your diesel dies and possibly water comes in. Some kind of backup needed.

    The risk of someone bumping into you is very high too - or bumping into a container or a whale - this happens to yachts all the time and often with quite disasterous results.

    Also the speed/efficiency statements you make are vague. You really cannot say - it is better than a boat without having more information. At what speed? Also you cannot compare 20 ton sub with 20 ton boat. a 20 ton boat has much less of its weight in hull and much more room (weight) spent on fuel, water, food and accommodations.

    good luck - but I do recommend having a little more open attitude to your critics.
     
  13. Tcubed
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    Tcubed Boat Designer

    Snorting --- Snorkeling
     
  14. kerosene
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    kerosene Senior Member

    I see - now I feel like a fool. I though that it was more like snorting some Colombian produce... Oh, did anyone mention that submarine would be great for carrying coke? :) Just kidding.
     

  15. Knut Sand
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    Knut Sand Senior Member

    Ooopps.... That got me thinking....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdeHYlfnd_g

    Sorry, not very constructive..., But as Hondaen stated; "If anything goes wrong, you're dead". A dive buddy once said, once, we were pushing the limits a bit, "it's not deep, but it's a looong way back up"... Well, the return isn't something you got to worry about, if an error pushes you below the implode depth, the reduced internal volume will probably be your first, and main problem to bother with....

    As a quick return to surface, the ballast keel may of course be quick release type. like what they got on the JIM suit, Or inflatables, but they're temperature responsive, and deeper pressure reduces their efficiency...

    Keep things exposed to outside pressure perfectly round/ spherical....:idea:

    Oh, and have you seen the Biber boats? http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1997/06/stuff_eng_detail_biber.htm

    (man...."A massive pipe of unknown purpose is protruding behind the bridge".... Don't have to have a degree in astrophysics to guess that its for the exhaust from the engine (gas/ diesel), for surface speed...)
     
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