Seaworthiness

Thats good news, nice fella, even though he is a Scott. Not his fault I guess.

 

Relieving news, Stu. I hope to see Max around here again soon.
Best.

 

I cannot resist the temptation to quote David Harding at this month's issue of Practical Boat Owner (page 34).

"If you want a boat that has the look, feel and handling of a big boat, you have two choices. One is to buy a big boat. The other is to buy something older and much smaller -such as an Elizabethan 23, for example.

Let me explain. By and large, sailing yachts have become more dinghy-like over the past 20 years or so -and this applies much to cruisers as to those designed for racing. They're lighter, beamier, flatter-sectioned and broader in the stern. Their keels are shorter in the chord and the mainsails bigger and tweakier. As a result they're faster in most conditions and on most points of sail than their equivalents from earlier decades, but this extra performance is often at the expense of a relaxing ride. Many modern cruisers are surprisingly demanding to sail: they need to be kept relatively upright; rig tuning and sail trim are critical; they can't be left to look after themselves without the help of an autopilot; they slam in a seaway and they broach with little warning.

This isn't quite as bad as it sounds. Design developments over the past few years have produced some wonderful boats. Some equally wonderful types of boat, however, are not longer built. Take the Liz 23 as an example. Here is a beautifully proportioned cutter cruiser that looks like a scaled-down 33 footer. If you see her in isolation, only the size of the crew gives away her diminutive size.

She has an slim hull and a long shallow keel with a steel centreplate for extra bite to winward. She retains her balance when heeled, remaining light on the helm and showing no inclination to broach. She slices through the seas, has remarkable directional stability and makes life far gentler for her crew than most modern boats of similar size.

This is a little boat that feels much bigger than you would imagine. Her designer and original builder, Peter Webster, described her as a 'real yacht in miniature'. I heard this echoed by a sailmaker who owns a modern 32-footer and tried her in fresh conditions. 'She sails like a proper big boat,' he said.

There are plenty of reasons why boats like this aren't build any more. The two main ones are that they would cost too much and not enough people would buy them. They were designed and built at a time when people often treated a 23-footer as a passage-maker in which crossing the Channel was a routine part of a cruising or racing calendar. These days a 23-footer is seen by many people as day-sailer: if you want to go further afield you buy something bigger."

No comments.
Cheers.

 

Amigo 23 is another heavy old boat
1.8 tons.
Same designer ( Carl Andersson )as the larger and more famous Vindö boats.

http://www.sailboatdata.com/viewrecord_access.asp?class_ID=3527

 

This one has sailed from Sweden to Peru 8and back) and is now for sale at 55.000 SEK (7.000 Euros?).

http://www.blocket.se/vi/15432239.htm?

 

Really heavy little boat, Raggi, with some surprising numbers:

AMIGO 23
Length/Beam Ratio (2Lwl + Lh)/3B = 1,72 (wide!)
Ballast/Disp Ratio W/Disp = 0,45
Displacement/Length Ratio D/L = 672,57 (wow!)
Sail Area/Disp. Ratio SA/D = 8,26 (very low!)
Hull speed HSPD = 5,64 Kn
Potential Maximum Speed PMS = 4,93 Kn
Velocity Ratio VR = 0,87
Capsize Safety Factor CSF = 2,21 (not nice!)
Motion Comfort Ratio MCR = 26,87
Roll Period T = 2,61 Sec
Roll Acceleration Acc = 0,13 G's (not nice!)
Stability Index SI = 0,76 (not nice!)
Angle of Vanishing Stability AVS = 124 º

(Basic info taken from http://www.sailboatdata.com/viewreco...?class_ID=3527)

Let's compare with the FLICKA 20, not a greyhound either:

FLICKA 20
Length/Beam ratio (2Lfl+Lh)/3B = 2,42
Ballast/Disp Ratio Ball/Disp = 0,3
Displacement/Length Ratio D/L = 446,35
Sail Area/Disp. Ratio SA/D = 11,59
Hull speed HSPD = 5,71 Kn
Potential Maximum Speed PMS = 5,64 Kn
Velocity Ratio VR = 0,99
Capsize Safety Factor CSF = 1,76
Motion Comfort Ratio MCR = 30,81
Roll Period T = 2,78 Sec
Roll Acceleration Acc = 0,07 G's
Stability Index SI = 1,14
Angle of Vanishing Stability AVS = 128 º


By these numbers Amigo 23 seems to be a super heavy, uncomfortable and slow one.

Also her CSF well over 2 may indicate a not safe enough ocean-going boat, although my estimated STIX for her is in the range of 36-37, which is extraordinarily high for this size of boat (Cat A begins in 32)

Anyhow she has sailed to Peru and back from Sweden, haven't she....?


Cheers.

 

Well, yes she did that journy, but I have never seen the boat or sailed it. It's regarded as a strongly built little boat for coastal cruising.

 

21' HALMAN = Seaworthiness

imnsho...

 

Reckon in reality it's about 150 deg .. It's a bit hard to judge the effects of the "super structure" but generally it's more significant in smaller boats..

 

Yes, Teddy, I agree.

mr curious:
Nice boat, seeming to have a lot of admirers.

I've found this on the Halman 20/21-Nordica 20:
http://www.nordicaboats.com/html/halmans.html
http://www.nordicaboats.com/html/colin_s_story.html
http://www.midgetclub.nl/welcome.htm
http://www.voile.org/forumvav32/read.php?2,1299,1347,quote=1

I'll work on her numbers some other day. Tired now.

Cheers.

 

Just a side note.

The pogo 8.5 is not a mini transat class. I fear it is only a look alike.

Pogo2 (real mini transat) = disp 975 kg. ballast 430 kg. ratio : 44%
length 6.50m draft 1.60m = 24% of length.

Pogo 8.5 = disp 2800 kg ballast 850 kg ratio : 30%
length 8.5m draft 1.75 m = 20% of lenth.

Turtling has been a problem of mini transat, although rule since start mandates a minimum roof volume and a minimum deck camber.

Next evolution has been increasing stability requirements and a tunnel escape hatch, with liferaft accessible from that tunnel. (the hatch in the transom all mini to current rules have)

Now, see last transgascogne 2007, all minitransat that capsized stayed less than 1 minute inverted, although ligth and beamy. (3 capsizes on 75 boats).

The next issue they now have to solve is mini transat that capsized with hatch open reright very fast, and do not sink.(One capsized just after the skipper entered the cabin, and had not yet closed the door). But as it was flooded inside, the liferaft was no longer accessible from inside. (tunnel submerged). It was also next to impossible to empty the boat with hand pump.

BTW, the best 24 hours run for a mini transat 6.50 is 266 miles. more than 11 kts on average on 24 hours. and on the latest minitransat, the winner averaged 7.5 kts for 17 days. 6m50 is 21'4"

 

well said

 

Although light and beamy but they do have a deep bulb and I'd be very interested to see a static stab curve. What's the vanishing (turtling ) angle.

The pogo comes with two keel lengths maybe the deeper one is the mini ?

 

Im looking at the Ted Brewer Thursdays Child design as a retirement cruiser
I see you mentioned him in your post
Im still doing a feasibility study on the basic design
and will measure my options from there
I was curious how some of you feel about the sea worthiness of this design
Ill be sailing the inside passage mostly but also coasting along the western sea board and Hawaii ( big wave territory )
Ive heard nothing but good things about Ted and his work
any one have experience with this boat
thanks
B

 

I don't think so. The name of these boats is a giveaway: You're unlikely to get a boat of 8.5m (Pogo 8.5) to rate in a class for 6.5m minis. Even John Corby would be hard pushed to pull that one off!