Aluminum Kayaks

Good points Chris - there is always another side to the story.

The 'tinnie' dinghy is very popular down here in the hot and harsh australian climate - but you dont get burnt on the aluminium hull of small craft when they are in the water - because the heat is absorbed by the water after being conducted by the aluminium. Its rare that heat is a problem even getting it off the trailer, because the air cools any hot spots.

After seeing the pictures of the Linder canoes - no one could say they cant make great canoes out of aluminium! Its a shame I couldnt figure out how much they were selling for - if anyone can translate, please let me know.

As for fibreglass - its bloody heavy! It may slide off rocks, but it will crack and splinter and absorb water readily. The average competition kyak is good for only two season of rough work before major, weight adding repairs.

Also, except for hire canoe firms and dads who have an eye on economy, roto moulded kyaks are just too bloody heavy! You might get a long life out of them, but not a lot of use out of them because they are so awkward.

Kengromes point about wood and epoxy is very valid because of the great weight to longevity ratio. It was a pain to build my strip plank canoe, but I smile every time I have to lift the bloody thing around.

Given that a huge percentage of marine grade aluminium is made in Europe, and that it is a long lasting and very lightweight product - if the price is right and you can get a great looking product like linder canoes, kengromes 'enthusiastic antipathy' doesnt convert me to the anti-aluminium brigade.

I also think that the various attempts to 'destroy' the original posters reputation and the crazy threats and villification he has undergone speak volumes about the mental state of a thankfully few contributors. Bluster and self righteous demands in the name of 'safety' dont make anyone look big and important in my eyes. If your point is valid, you dont need to make an arse of yourself to educate others.

 

Hi Chris,

What I actually set out to do was to visit the website so I could learn more about the aluminum kayak he mentioned since I had never heard of one before and I thought it might be interesting. It was only after I got to his website and discovered misleading lies and illegal business practices that I began to get a rather negative impression of the guy ...

If only the original posting individual had not lied about the reason why he would take a month to deliver the boat after he gets the buyer's money, and if only he would have registered his business legally with the proper authorities, I would not have gotten so upset with his activities. But I had nothing to do with the choices he made, so if anyone is guilty of discrediting him I think he will simply have to accept responsibility for his own behavior.

I don't really know what you're getting at when you talk about the original poster's "position". I never saw him post any 'position' in regard to his kayaks, nor did he ever asked for suggestions for why aluminum might be a good or bad kayak material. All he said is that he wanted comments -- so I gave him mine -- and negative as they were, at least he didn't have to settle for a bunch of lies and deception from me simply to make him feel good or for me to be 'politically correct'.

I can assure you of one final thing here:

The Coast Guard rules are absolutely applicable, not 'possibly' applicable as you have characterized them. You and everyone else can easily look them up online since they are published on the USCG's website. I have no ego to pad here either, so if you or anyone else can show me where I'm wrong I will apologize for my mistake(s) in describing these laws improperly ... and then we will all know something new about them, won't we?



Hi rwatson,

The 'tinnie' dinghy may be popular down there in the hot and harsh Australian climate, but boating in much of the USA is more limited by cold than by heat. Aluminum in cold weather sucks heat away many times faster than the human body can generate and replace it. This makes aluminum a very uncomfortable material to be in contact with when the weather is cool or cold, even when you are dry and fully clothed.

I mentioned this issue twice earlier and neither you nor Chris commented on it in your posts ... but it bears noting and keeping in mind that extending a boat's paddling season in the USA often means getting on the water in colder weather -- not an attractive option for anyone who owns an aluminum boat, especially one that is typically in such intimate contact with the body as a kayak.

-------------------------

Hi GAVIOTA,

Please accept my apology for thinking that you're just another scammer or degenerate bent on doing whatever you happen to feel like doing with no regard for ethics or the law. There are lots of 'bad guys' on the web these days and my first impression of your website was clearly not a good one -- and by now I'm sure you understand why.

If you actually want to know more about the business issues related to selling boats legally in the USA you're welcome to email me privately and I'll try to answer your questions based on my understanding of the laws. Just be aware that I'm not a lawyer and even if I were it wouldn't mean I would know it all, so you should always confirm your own understanding of things first -- before you accidentally proceed down the wrong path again.

By the way, I applaud you for making the effort to build and test market a very uncommon boat. I like the new and unusual and your boat is certainly both! I only hope you can take a step backwards at the moment and re-think your approach to marketing and sales so your next attempt goes more smoothly.



-----------------------------

In conclusion:

I have no doubt that aluminum kayaks can be built and function well. But I still do not believe they can be build and sold competitively in the mass market. This appears to leave a specialized niche market open to exploitation, assuming one actualy exists ... and I'm not quite ready to make such an assumption.

Can anyone describe the type of buyer who might prefer an aluminum kayak to some of the other alternatives out there these days? Are there any special advangages to an aluminum kayak that might override the so-called 'negatives' I've already mentioned?

 

Hear hear.

 

OK. Gaviota could very easily build several prototype craft to his specs here in the USA, develop the necessary process for manufacturing and then take his entire operation offshore. This would take him out of the auspices of the Coast Guard and any applicable regulations until such time as he decided to import his product to the US. Did that really need to be said with you living over in the Philippines?

Now, there may be regs for the other countries in which he may do his business, but that was not the issue as stated.

Ken, I live in Salt Lake City at 5000' elevation. We get some decently cold weather here in the winter. (It's pretty tough to hold a Winter Olympic event here without it being cold enough) Just last year, I took a canoe out on the Great Salt Lake with my friend, Kellan. The water was 26 degrees, as was the air temp. I can assure you that the wooden cored glass laminate boat was just as cold as the water and air. (images attached below)

(coincidentally, the image below which shows an eerie kind of horizonless view, also shows another boat off in the distance. That was a couple of guys returning from a winter morning duck hunting session in, you guessed it.... an aluminum flats boat)

If one wishes to paddle in these kinds of temps, then one simply dresses the part and proceeds. A canoe is a very exposed vessel and virtually every part of it is operating in the ambient water/air temps. There is no additional discomfort from a cold hull, whatever the material, beyond what one is already experiencing. We just use a seat cushion if it seems too cold and wear an extra layer of insulation.

Your concerns about a cold hull in these kinds of conditions would apply to a cabin equipped sailing or power vessel, should the hull be made of aluminum. In that case, it would be much more comfortable to insulate the vessel's interior and operate a modest heater for extended human occupancy. But then, that isn't really a canoe or kayak, now, is it?

Sure.

A person who is looking for a perceived value enhancement through material choices, a guy who has a developed aesthetic appreciation which can be delivered through the choice of certain materials and lastly, an individual who
wishes to have an extended sense of pride of ownership.

 

I reckon we have flogged this subject pretty well by now. I posted on page one as an impolite naysayer. Perusing the thread in its' entirety I see that we are divided in opinion if not fact.
A kayak, a really good one, does not necessarily require compound bends that are beyond the ability of aluminum (Aluminium if you are a Brit or Aussie) . The are some thoroughly competant kayaks of stitch and glue construction. Chesapeake Light Craft, Pygmy, etc. They are made from flat panels of Okume or similar ply.

A defining feature of aluminum boats is their ability to endure abject abuse. By abuse I am thinking mainly of storage in ones yard under a tree or in the cow pasture. Those things get filled with algae laden water , mosquito larvae, decaying leaves, old beer cans, and in the case of a cow pasture, no telling what will land in the boat. The boats can be left in that state of disarray for years without any sign of care or attention. Clean 'em out and they still work as well as they did before all that abuse. Try that with any other material and the result will be not nearly so satisfactory. So yes, aluminum does have its' place. Not in MY kayak mind you, but for some people, aluminum will serve them well. Before you jump on me by saying that nobody treats his boat like that, I will aver that they do so with regularity here in my part of the world. A few years back I bought a disheveled old Starcraft fishing boat in just such a circumstance. I confess that it needed hours of scouring to make it habitable but when cleaned up it worked just fine, did not leak, I was never electrocuted, nor did I burn my butt.

I am a wooden boat guy because ....Well damned if I know but a few reasons why. I must fuss over my wooden boats, keep them covered, store them dry, pet them regularly, use a lot of varnish and sandpaper, and choose my landings carefully. I did not have to do that with the old Starcraft. Maybe there is a market for tin kayaks after all.

 

I'm glad that this topic settled down to a more gentlemanly exchange of points of view! Things were a bit heated- weren't they?

I've been interested in thin hull welded aluminum boats and even built a kayak of 0.080" 5052 many years ago.

There are materials issues, shape issues and assembly issues, one of which may the regulatory agency's requirements but these areas of the discussion seem to call for a little more separation.

As regards the regulatory agency (DOT/CG) boating safety upright flotation regulations specifically except/exempt/don't include kayaks. That is on the CG reg. site and was interesting that a row boat requires level flotation but a kayak doesn't?? Who knew? not me.

There are several other "not-applicable-to-kayaks" provisions of these regulations which leads me to believe that this class of recreational boat may not be a closely scrutinized by the CG as other types?

Business of building and selling boats one off or even in dozens can be done as a "Back Yard Boat Builder" instead of a manufacturer. This term is the DOT's not mine, and I used to build in this fashion although it wasn't more than the one kayak. I did build many welded skiffs, and the CG always claimed indifference and wouldn't even inspect. No problem from me, but there may be areas of the marine manufacturing where there is more or less focus by regulators?

The material has some pro's and con's and the water or rather the rocks in/under/around the body of water is what makes "ALL" Alaskan boats metal. Nothing stands up to bouncing on rocks better, at least nothing light enough to handle as a small boat.

Yes, we do have lots of wood, plastic, and composite boats but they have to be treated with such care they're not expected to last in really rough treatment. Just regular "beaching" ("all" of ours are gravel in various sharpnesses) in a following sea or running a shallow river will ruin a plastic or wood kayak.

Livability/comfort/noisiness of aluminum is less attractive than cellulose, but if you live where durability and bullet proof is the minimum standard- well there's no discussion: build in metal, put in wood seats and wear a wet suit to kayak in.

These same (wooden) kayaks, in the lower latitudes, would last a leisurely paddled lifetime and are excellent performers and beautiful objects of art. If I lived in the old country, I'd have a nice mahogany runabout and a beautiful pulling boat. But not here, I've seen the effort they require to maintain compared to the neglect our metal boats sustain without incident or damage.

Shape-wise Grumman's are mentioned but not necessarily for the proof of the malleability of this metal. If someone used an English wheel they could form a very compound 'half-kayak' or hull panel for a kayak that was as curvaceous as any molded kayak. So shape wise, there are possibilities wholly unexplored in aluminum built into this type of hull.

The level of effort, to fully form an aluminum kayak, might make that kayak worth a fleet of wooden strippers or roto-molded plastic models but the shape could be formed- even one off.

What I'd like to learn about the kayaks being proposed is the type of alloy and thickness, joint cross section, welding techniques, scantlings and other details that would allow a real understanding of the idea as realized by the original poster.

If he were full of bilgewater it will show up immediately, but metal boats exist everywhere that durability is more important than any other single consideration for that boat- why not durable kayaks?

Cheers,

 

Absolute Madness

Hello...

Completely lost your marbles...

See http://www.exploform.com/products.php ...

SH.

 

I wonder what sort of molds would be needed to compound curve aluminum. If it was a press, it would be two massive metal ones, with using explosives, who knows? A major amount of money/consideration, anyways.

The region Commander for the CG manufacturing regulation told me there were no flotation regs because they figured if you were stupid enough to be in a canoe you had better know what you're doing. That showed me you don't have to be particularly bright to be a CG Commander, which I suspected anyways.

They want you to be registered and give you a manufacturers code I think mainly so other branches of the govt. can tax you. It also gives a way to track you down, as you are also liable for any possible problems relating to a boat you make as long as it exists, such as recalls or injury caused by bad design or construction. Manufacturing anything for use by others opens you up to the possibility of litigation in the courts, such possibilities being probably infinite or unlimited, but are positively expensive. Liability insurance is not available.

Aluminum kayaks would work. If a person was to sell them they would have to do the usual business things. Buy low, sell high and above all MARKET. As for quality or disadvantages, that is not a concern for the average person as the average person doesn't seem to have a clue about what quality actually is. Looks, price and some other thing are all that matters to the masses.

 

My guess is that rollers could be used to shape the compound curves. I imagine two sets of matched rollers (one football shaped and the other concave to match)
One set follows the other, and while the first roller set's axles are aligned one above the other, the second set of roller axles is set up to allow the upper (concave roller,say) to rotate around the lower one, in effect tugging a continuously variable curve into the long dimension (the pattern could be a simple cam and follower).
The rollers could be made of solid steel, or maybe even hard maple. If hard maple would work, it seems anyone could make compound kayaks in aluminum.

 

Alan; the machine you are talking about is called an english wheel. The people who use them most are automobile guys, especially the race car types. The machines work very well but demand a measure of skill and the process is very labor intensive.

I think compound curve Kayaks are a moot point because a very good kayak can be made with flat panels. I have a friend who has built a Pygmy kit. A 14 footer that is beautiful, weighs 34 pounds and has repeatedly demonstrated its efficiency by besting all manner of curvacious competitors. Further the friend is a 130 pound woman. I am stronger than she is and I can still barely keep up in my 15 foot Walden sea kayak which has some sweet compound curves. Take a look at some of the CLC offerings. Stitch and glue, flat panels. They are exceptional examples of totally functional and efficient kayaks.

It is true that almost all the full on racing kayaks have curvy hulls. The racers are looking for every last bit of performance from the boat. No doubt that rounded chines will generate less drag than square ones. But how much less? The aluminum boat would not even be a casual consideration for the serious kayaker because it will surely be heavier than one built of different material. I do think the aluminum one would last untill hell frezes over twice. Not so with the wooden, FRP, kevlar, or tupperware
beauties.

 

The curves on a an aluminium canoe maybe arent so much for the performance, but certainly for stiffness. The compound curves impart dent resistance, prevent 'tin-canning' and provide general overall 'stiffness' that isnt nearly as required as plywood stitch and glue.
Plywood is at least 1/8 " thick, which makes it naturally stiff - while aluminium would be thinner.
The other big advantage of compound curves is that you get a lot of hull with fewer joins. The joins in aluminium are time consuming and problemetic, so you the less you have the better.

 

aluminum kayak

i have been pondering this idea for a couple of years and as a aircraft structures tech. i know alot about structural materials like aluminum and composites. an aluminum kayak does not have to be heavy if you use .050 alum. for the skin and .040 stringers and frames. all riveted construction would be my preferred method because welding tends crack when hit and focusing stress towards one point where as rivets obsorb through sheer numbers. as for beening to hot in summer and to cold in winter thats what blown in insulation is for also will aid in sound deadening and flotation. alot of people are bias against aluminum but i own a aluminum canoe and i love it as compared to the plastic canoe i sold which was much heavier and cobersome then the aluminum.

thanks
steve

 

I would love to experiment with an aluminum kayak. I would do a plumb bow with a long sleek sheer - sort of like the old style steamers. Maybe a container ship-style hull with a fine entry and a long parallel midbody design. Who knows? I, for one, won't knock anything until I try it.

Some people can learn everything they need to know just by looking at something.

Some people can learn everything they need to know just by listening to others.

I, unfortunately, am the type who needs to pee on the electric fence for myself.
--Chuck

 

I hear That!!

Sir..... from an outside perspective...... maybe you need to go look at a mirror.

I think that is a pretty foolish opinion as you can build a kayak out of aluminum as easy as anything else. Aluminum has pros and cons lke any material but it will out last plastic and is lighter and stronger by ratio to the pound then wood/glass combinations when it comes to small craft applications like kayaks.

In the California fishing community (which I'm a part of) the majority of small boats under 18ft for saltwater use are aluminum. There are also more and more Aluminum boats in the 20ft to 25ft range hitting the market every day. They are lighter in weight, stronger then their glass counterparts and burn less fuel.... That's certainly a growing concern, as our fuel prices rise out here.

So your suggestion that aluminum is only applicable for big boats is kind of laughable from my perspective.

Now I read your posts here in this thread and I must say: you have browbeat the original poster and tooted your horn most admirably. Very impressive.

Heck I even went to your website.


Now.... I'm not a licensed boat builder like you are, I do not live in a third world country where I can hire workers at substandard wages (by my standards) in order to build inexpensive (cheap) boats to sell in America out of Philippine mahogany. (I prefer aucoumea klaineana anyway)

In fact I'm not trying to sell a thing to anyone here.

(can you honestly say the same?)

I'm just an old fashion guy, a "one man show" if you will (the kind of guys your tired of) who builds things one at a time pretty much for himself.

So speaking of Horn tooting......

Here's my fourteen ft skiff ( I designed and built) with an extension and twin 15hp outboards. I take forty miles offshore for fishing T-sharks and tuna.



As you can see I actually use it, and you're not going to see anything like it anywhere. Just my little one man offshore fishing machine (meant to be a prototype) that's been just to fun to retire.

Here's my 18ft mahogany Kayak that I designed and built.







Which I use as well.



It's actually kind of a wave piercing design with very sharp entry and exit, most of the displacement in the center, more rocker and flare then a standard kayak hull. Kind of a sailboat hulled kayak if you will. I designed it for paddling offshore in a stiff chop. Since it doesn't bounce up and down in the waves less inertial energy is lost in rough conditions and believe it or not it's almost as fast in choppy conditions as calm ones. Nothing else like it.

Heck here's even one of my plastic kayaks (I have several)



..... but much to I imagine your chagrin I have modified it with Aluminum as well.



Now I'm no expert unlike you, but I do have a little experience with aluminum, wood, resin and kayaks, be they wood, plastic, Kevlar, graphite composite, carved and resined foam or pretty much any other material, and you know what I think?

I think you could make a heck of nice kayak out of Aluminum. In fact as soon as I get done with my 21ft pilot house skiff project I'm working on (built in aluminum) I'm going to build one and post pictures of it just for you.


Jim

 

Hey Jim,

Write me off list, please. I'd like to get your feedback on a boat design I'm developing.

I grew-up in the South Bay, spent my wayward youth fishing at the Redondo Pier and King Harbor entrance jetty, the Offshore Day Barge, the old school fishing barges tied to the inside of the San Pedro Breakwater (gone a long time now in favor of that truly ugly fishing pier) and snorkeling for lobster and Abs along the PV coastline. The rest of the time, I was surfing and playing baseball when my Mom wasn't yelling at me to mow the lawns. I'm sure you know the drill.

We probably have a lot to talk about.

Chris at Wedgesail dot com