Notable open & development class racers....

The world is a Tuxedo and Doug is a pair of brown shoes. As soon as someone starts thinking about the foiling sportboat project, he'll patent one of the ideas and hope to make money selling licenses (without ever having to do any work or build any boats). Like the "K-Keel" or whatever and like the canting rigs that no one has seen yet are patented by the CBTF folk.

Doug has an international reputation, it's probably best to ignore him and let him reply to his own threads.

You make some very good points about having other boats to race against and that people are choosing Cal 20's to race. I can see owning a Cruising Class 40 in SF. Do the YRA ocean series and the SSS series. There are enough races to have a decent calendar and single or double-handed classes in all of them.

I don't know if there is enough shorthanded racing in So. Cal to justify the boat. I know the single/double handed scene is next to non-existent here in Vancouver. A Class 40 Cruiser might not be such a hot choice for Swiftsure, Southern Straits, SOAR, or the VARC series.

 

I think the HN numbers are pretty much all round, simply because as I understand it they are used widely around France for local racing, not just Southern Ocean blasting. The Pogo still looks quick to me, for a boat that can cross oceans singlehanded.

I'm not sure about the price. Owen Clarke's Open 40s seem to range from about 240 Euros up to 340. I'm not sure of the price of say a Beneteau 40.7 or a Farr 40; the numbers I can find seem way too low - can you give us an idea Vega?

I'm liking the look of the Class 40s more and more, but they're not ideal for my personal taste or for the races I do as far as I can see. It would be interesting to see a 28-32 foot version.

 

Note the formation of a Short-handed Sailing Association in the Northeast United States: http://www.stormtrysail.org/Pages/01 Breaking News/Frame Pages/2007-BIRW-SAS-1.html

The trajectory of my own ambition is to complete the Classic Moth and sail it over summer 2007, then, in about a year, to begin design work on a 8.0 x 2.5 meter maxi trailer-sailer.

I'd be interested in your thinking, CT.... perhaps we can start spec'ing something together. We could look at the ORC GP28 rule for guidance (even if you don't want to do a carbon boat in the end) or we could a start with Mini650 parameters and simply increase the station spacing. Perhaps we could come at it from both those directions...

BTW I concur with Paul B about Steve Thompson's work. The T830 & T850 are a nice boats. The Esse 850, an Umberto Felci design out of Switzerland, is cool, too.

A lot of us spend too much time in these forums, so don't be too harsh. The Doug Lord I respect is the one who was the first I know of to build an RC sailboat that could launch, retrieve, and re-launch a spinnaker. He also did, apparently, build an interesting little boat on which to test some of his ideas, and I have seen drawings of what he and Eric Sponberg have been working on. If you don't want to take him seriously, that's up to you. But sailing is dull if we keep designing the same thing endlessly, and new boats have to compete with brokerage boats, as Paul B has pointed out.

 

I've given Doug props on more than one occasion. I think he is a pretty clever guy. From various threads it is obvious that he does not have the knowledge to bring his visions to life at 12" to the foot scale. Absent any evidence of successful design, (the designer of the Rave "helped" with his foiling tri, and as near as I can tell he sublet the design of his canting 1 Metre) we have only his manner and character to give weight to his statements. I would expect a credible person to be able to admit failure as part of a learning curve. He claims his Aero-Skiff(tm) foiled, but had some control problems. The project was abandoned, and he has now gone on to the "X-18" 110 deg canting keel,foiling whatever ... he talks about "my 60' foiler" as if it exists, he cites 2 year old experiments with canting keel Melges 24's as successful, yet AFAIK canting keel M24's are not taking the class by storm. His claims are outlandish, and his response to being challenged varies from condescending to abusive. It is very hard to take anything he has to say seriously. After getting the last thread he started about his 60' fantasy foiler locked, he's started another one.

Yes, he's clever, he did a spinnaker launch, retrieve, and relaunch on a 50" boat. No small feat, even though the boat is small. However, he has earned his reputation. He doesn't play well with others.

I can't agree that sailing is dull. Things evolve to a point at which they are very good at what they do. The very nature of the air and water is type forming. Broad bows and pointed sterns aren't likely to work. We keep designing almost the same thing, because that's what works. If every new design is 50% closer to the perfect boat after only 7 generations 50% closer to the ideal is less than a 1% change.

There are enough lateral thinkers with more computing power on their desktops than mainframes of yesterday that I doubt that a hullform exists that some contributor to Popular Science hasn't tried. We still get people posting about golf ball dimples and sliding hulls on a cushion of tiny bubble ball bearings. We have people thinking that ejecting the keel and mast will somehow make a boat safer from sinking. We have people claiming that wing sails with half the area and lower CL will drive boats at the same speeds as soft rigs.

That new designs have to compete with brokerage boats tells me that boats with broad appeal (the ones that real people sail and the marinas are full of) are very much alike. It is when the corners of intended use are explored that we see innovation, but because the wind and sea have not changed, the corners are becoming type formed also. The Open class hull form of pointy bow and wide beam at the transom has proved to be a winning type. The long, narrow light displacement cruiser (ala Sundeer) is a winning type. The thought of cruising a class 40 has really gotten people riled up, but if the type works with a bit more traditional interior it could be the shape of things to come. I'm with CT in wondering if a 30 something boat of the same type might be a good boat.

 

You mean from 240 000 to 340 000 Euros.

Regarding ocean-racing absolute performance a First 40.7 has nothing to do with a class40. In that type of boats (First) my favorite one is the x-40.

http://www.x-yachts.com/seeems/12756.asp

The First 40.7 and the Bavaria Match are relatively fast and inexpensive boats. The First costs only 158 000 euros, but the x-40 costs 263 000 Euros.

The least expensive of the 40class boats is the A40. It costs 142 900 euros. It was the first boat, and precedes the 40class. It was elected French boat of the year 2004. Now it is slower than the others and they are advertising a new A40.

The Pogo 40 costs 170 000 euros and the Jumbo 40 costs (a Rolland design) cost 183 000euros.

The Farr 40 costs 232 000 euros.

These prices include the French VAT (taxes) of 20%. For export the boats cost less 20%, plus the taxes you have to pay in your own countries.

 

If by clever you mean someone who doesn't seem to understand the physical realities of boat design and construction, well then you might be right. As far as we can tell he can't do any design drawings himself. He certainly can't post them.

He constantly refers to the Bethwaite/Billoch 100 footer as if it is something real. In fact is is nothing but a sketch done more than 3 years ago. Nothing's been heard of it since, except from Douggie. Same with Langman's canting deck 60 turned canting keel 100 footer. It was going to do the Hobart race two years ago, and it hasn't been seen yet. It wasn't going to have any foils, but ol' Douggie keeps talking about it like it's about to be launched with the foiling package any day now.

He has been on the same rant for at least the past four years, like the repetitive activity of a caged primate. Here's a post from him on another board from October 2002. That's more than four years ago. I am sure you will recognize the same tired old claims he's still using today:

"A revolution in model sailing (and full size sailing) is about to be unleashed: monohull keelboats with hydrofoils that lift the entire boat clear of the water!
The feasibility of this kind of design has recently been proved in full size boats like the I14 belonging to David Lugg in Australia and several Moths from Western Australia.These boats are monohulls that are stabilized by the crew and fly on hydrofoils.
As of todays date NO ONE has succesfully sailed a monohull keel boat whether a model or a full size boat -on hydrofoils.But in a very short time that is going to change .Using a combination of a canting keel and on-deck sliding rack for stability these boats will sail on just two hydrofoils: one on the rudder and one on a daggerboard just ahead of the canting keel strut.
The advantages are tremendous: a keelboat is self-righting and therefore in the event of a "crash" the boat will recover automatically. The boat will be much faster than a conventional keel equipped monohull and will be able to carry more sail in higher wind without pitchpoling problems.
These boats will never be as fast as some foil equipped multihulls but will certainly establish themselves in rc sailing as the fastest type of monohull --whether they can routinely beat traditional keelboats around a triangular course remains to be seen--but the probability is very high that they will.So stay tuned--more here soon!"
_________________
Doug Lord
lorsail@webtv.net
http://www.microsail.com
http://www.monofoiler.com

 

But you have those versions. The manufacturers and designers of the 40class boats came from the two most successful Ocean racing monohull categories, the 60 (and 50) open and the Minis 6.5.

The First Pogo was a racing mini for the Transat, and that was more than 10 years ago.
http://www.pogostructures.com/?m=5&s=1&l=en

They have now the Pogo2 (6.5) , a very popular boat and still a strong contender in the Transat.

http://www.pogostructures.com/?m=2&s=1&l=en

After that one, they have made the Pogo 8.5. It was a huge success. It was the first cruiser racer of the family. It was elected French boat of the year 2000.

If you read French you can see the enthusiastic welcome that the boat had on the French specialized press:

http://www.pogostructures.com/?m=3&s=4&l=en

The transoceanic solo races, raced in small inexpensive and fast boats, raise among the French and many other Europeans a huge enthusiasm. The next Mini6.5 Transat (16th edition) is going to start on the 16 September 2007. Inscriptions opened 2/12/2006 and on the 15/12/2006 they had 131 Inscriptions, for a maximum of 75 possible.

The race starts from Fort-Boyard (France) and finishes in S. Salvador da Baia (Brazil).

 

Do they have similar races for the 8.5 in or around France? It seems it is too small for many offshore races (by the requirements, not by the ability of the boat).

 

Perhaps what's needed is an 8.5 class. In the spirit of "Mini 6.5" it could called the "Petit 8.5". Paul B, could it be precisely the kind of entry level class for young designers to showcase their boats that 1/4 and 1/2 ton classes, and MORC, used to be?

I'd hate to see it compete for sailors with GP28. Is there a way to take the best of both rules and come up with a single class? If GP33 & 42 permit carbon hulls, perhaps the smaller class should be the one that doesn't. Accept that, and how much would one have to modify the GP28 rule to make it parallel Class40 (and permit the Pogo)?

I can imagine the Storm Trysail Club and the Short-handed Sailing Association getting interested in such a class. It could be an entry level Bermuda 1-2 or Marblehead to Halifax boat.

Limiting beam to 8'-6" (just over 2.5 meters) would have practical benefits for trailering, though, at least here in the U.S. The deck flares on the Phuket 8 are removable to reduce its beam:
http://asianyachting.com/AYmasters/Promotion/Phuket8.htm
http://www.sea-phuket.com/boat-sales/phuket-sports-8s.htm

 

Thanks for the pricing information, Vega. The Pogos look a lot cheaper than I thought they would be, based on my information about the price of the Minis which is very high.

I know of the Pogo 850 and the Minis, but for my personal taste they are too short for their beam and rig size, and not amazingly fast for the price and rig size (at least in the case of the Mini). The 850's not much quicker than say a First 31.7 or Beneteau 25. We've had a few very beamy boats in the Open style out here for years, and I still don't like the idea of packing a big rig and big beam onto a short hull.

The French are doing some nice interiors; a bit of timber to brighten things up, enough facilities for cruising, but without lashings of teak and air conditioning. Good to see.

On the other hand, the enormous difference in Handicap between the Pogo 40 Race and the Pogo 40 Cruiser may indicate that the dual-purpose boats have no chance in Open racing, where they do have a very good chance under other systems (like the X 40 link you posted).

About "Regarding ocean-racing absolute performance a First 40.7 has nothing to do with a class40. In that type of boats (First) my favorite one is the x-40."

I know that the 40.7 is nothing like as fast as the 40 (I'd shown the difference in the Handicap National) in terms of pure speed. I was comparing them in terms of speed for the dollar, or speed for accomodation. To me, pure speed isn't not very relevant because they're all keelboats and therefore all pretty slow.

 

Paul B & RHough:

You two have made comments based on a complete lack of information-and I'm tired of it; you have used inuendo, fabrication, sarcasm and misrepresentation to make your points in trying to portray me in the most negative light possible. Thats unfortunate because Stephen has a good thread going here and I deeply regret having to reply to such drivel.
Neither of you has posted a single proposed rule-right or wrong I have; you say my sportboat foiler preliminary calcs won't work: PROVE IT IF YOU CAN!!! I've posted a preliminary rule and the parameters of two boats to fit within the rule. You have posted nothing but negative trash when it comes to me-so PROVE I'm wrong instead of your inuendo laced malarkey. Sportboat foiler won't work? Show us why!!! "Sportboat 600" rule won't work? Why?
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Here are comments made by Mr. Hough, the man of many faces- about my "Fantasy Foiler" when he was in a good mood:
* #16 * Post Feedback * Flag for Moderator *
09-09-2006, 04:58 PM
RHough
Retro Dude
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Rep: 69 Posts: 725
Location: Port Moody BC
Doug, I'm impressed.
I'll be the first to say when my knee jerk reaction is in error.
I still feel that SA/WSA is too simple to be of much value. Although Doug is correct that a boat with a higher SA/WSA ratio should be faster.
I took the liberty of generating some drag and power curves for Doug's 60' CKSDBMF and an ORMA 60' Trimaran. I considered both wetted surface (skin friction) drag and induced drag fom the foils on both boats. I did not consider wavemaking drag, spray drag, or foil profile drag. Both boats will probably have similar additional drag in these areas.
Bottom Line:
Doug is absolutely right. The 60'MF is potentially faster than a displacement multi-hull.
I used Doug's Figures for foil sizes and weights. The 60'MF rig ends up being about 100' tall, which just happens to be the limit for an ORMA 60.
The ORMA 60 has only a 151% advantage in Sail Carrying Power over the 60'MF
My calcs show that the 60MF should be able to lift and foil just over 10 knots of boat speed. The drag polar peaks at lift off, then goes down until the boat speed is 25 knots or so. The negative slope of the drag curve (pink) is due to fact that the CL required of the foils goes down faster than the drag due to skin friction goes up. I used an AR of 7.5:1 (15x2) for both the main foil and the rudder foil and a max CL of 1.3.
The drag curve for the Tri (blue) has a flat area from about 10 knots to 20 knots for the same reason. The foil produces the needed lift at lower CL values as speed increases.
Somewhere between 20 and 25 knots the MF has lower drag than the Tri and the MF enjoys a drag advantage at all speeds above 25.
I added a line (yellow) to show the relative drag of the two boats.
The violet line shows the 151% power advantage for the Tri.
Right about 35 knots boat speed the Power Advantage curve meets the Drag Penalty Curve and above that point the MF should be faster.
I did some basic rig efficiency calculations to get a feel for the total drag vs power available for the two boats. These curves are purple for the MF and brown for the Tri. It is interesting to note that below about 15 knots boat speed the MF has very little power to spare. From 15 to 30 knots the percentage of available power required to equal drag is almost the same, and above 35 knots the Tri has more spare power than the MF.
These very basic calculations show that at 50 knots both boats have power to spare. This cannot be true, since ORMA Tri's have not hit 50 knots. I made no attempt to estimate parasite drag for either of the boats. At boat speeds over 15 knots or so, the aerodynamic drag of the hull and rig start eating into that extra available power and in practice all the extra power seems to be used somewhere in the 40-45 knot range.
I still don't think that a 60'CKSDBMF can be built that will foil reliably if at all. However, if it could be built it has the potential to compete with ORMA 60's.
Attached Thumbnails
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"Those who fall in love with practice without science are like a sailor who steers a ship without a helm or compass, and who can never be certain whither he is going"
Leonardo Da Vinci
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Seeing as how the GP level is a 26, not a 28, they are different birds.

Also the GP class boats are really inshore W/L types. They will be much better upwind than the beamy "Mini" types, especially in light conditions.

I can see a custom GP26 running more than $100KUS. Home built would be less, but you would still be looking at more than $10K just for sails, and probably more than that for a rig. So even if you built by yourself you would be looking at more $$ than a Melges 24. If a buyer has a choice of a Melges with their great class and good resale value, versus a GP 26 for 1.5 or 2x the cost and potential no resale, I think I know what they will do.

I don't know the answer.

 

A challenge to prove a negative. You can't get any more desperate than that. I will be happy when you build these things and prove they can work.

You couldn't get your theories to work in a monohull model.

Then you built a 16 footer that failed so miserably you parked it for years and tried to convince everyone it was a success. So you junked it instead of facing the "humiliation" of actually letting people see it fail time and again.

So on to a new 18 foot idea with even more difficulty in the design. What is the time schedule for that one? No answer I presume. Just yakkity yak yak.

When asked hard questions about that one you don't answer, and on to more crazed postings about 60 foot canting foilers.

Your 14 footer is on hold until someone else designs it, right?

What happened to your 12 footer and the 17 footer designs that a "Major" boat manufacturer was going to build? What about the 17 foot canting keeler you had "in development". What about the mini with your silly high drag keel (TM)? What about the 20 foot foiler you were going to have launched by early this year? I guess none of that can happen if you don't produce working drawings, eh?

Focus! Take on ONE project and see it through to success. Build your 25 foot "sportboat" with the foils and canting keel and all your (TM) rig stuff and go out and rip up the Melges 24s, if you can find a venue that will let you race. Or build your 18 foot thing with sliding this and that and, well, I don't know what you would do with that. Better yet, build you 14 foot "People's Foilee" and get in on the potential goldmine if you can win the selection if they decide to admit a foiler into the Olympics. Why should the Blade and the Prowler be the only choices? You can put your talent on the line against those guys and maybe be the big weiner.

On the other hand you could sit at your TV and type the same things over and over again for another four years.

Foiler-canter-foiler-canter-foiler-canter-foiler-canter-foiler-canter-foiler-canter-foiler-canter-foiler-canter-foiler-canter-foiler-canter...


Quoted from a study about repetitive behaviours:

"This repetitive, apparently senseless behaviour indicates neurosis or
even insanity. It is caused by boredom, loneliness, frustration, stress
and psychological and habitat deprivation."

 

There's quite a few very nice trailable but Cat 3. capable 28 footers down here (Australia and New Zealand). With some loss of performance they could be built to Cat 2.

Young 840 (pics each side) is 1700-1800kg, has some space but generally a minimalist fitout, is a bit over 8.5feet but trails with a permit, I think. Rated considerably quicker than a Pogo 850.

The Beale 850 (middle pic) looks like a cruiser and has a full interior but it seems the quick versions would scare a Melges 24, although with only two M24s here it's hard to judge.

Some boats of this style will rate well IRC, and are very versatile because they do well around short courses yet could be sailed offshore (at least one has provision for positive buoyancy making it very safe IMHO). They have enough accomodation for a small family. I'd take a version of this class in the Sydney to Hobart and sail it or trail it home later.....great way to go. I'm not saying that they are better than the Open style, they're just another way to go.

I'm sometimes tempted to do some re-mortgaging and get one but my current 8.5m 2,300 kg Spencer fractional just collects barnacles these days cause I'm spending all my time in boards and dinghies, I have access to a trailable cruising cat, and the small offshore yacht scene is dead here. It's all just big boats, or golf handicap, or guys going on about the fact that they can go 11.2 knots intead of 10.7 knots. I'll have another go at sparking the half tonners up, as they have done in Europe, after the Canoe and Laser Masters worlds next year.

 

That's what I get for trusting my memory. Thanks for the correction.
http://www.orc.org/index.php?id=163

I'm happy to see that what I had proposed is the case: while carbon hulls are allowed in GP33 and GP42, they are not allowed in GP26. http://www.orc.org/fileadmin/user_upload/download/FINAL_RULES.pdf

Vega et.al.: What would you think of offshore racing in GP26s? What modifications would need to be made to the GP26 rule to produce boats for the type of shorthanded offshore racing engaged in by Class40?

CT 249: How 'bout the Van Munster GP26?
http://www.vanmunsterboats.com/ORC GP26.html
That's built near you, isn't it?

How 'bout the Thompson 830 or the Phuket 8? My design aim will be to produce a boat similar in performance to these while being a more comfortable overnighter. Is that what you're thinking, too?

The more I look at GP26, the more I think I might design one. The overnighter features I have in mind can be added after for a cruising version of same.