Notable open & development class racers....

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Stephen Ditmore, Nov 20, 2006.

  1. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    Thanks, Guillermo & Brian.... looks like a great read!
     
  2. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    I'm confused, Vega. Is this a development class or a one-design? In what sense is it "open"?
     
  3. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Not properly unknown:p , but I have not talked about "Akilaria", a design by Marc Lombard, the boat that many consider the fastest of the 40Class.

    I have been inside one and I have talked with the guys. What an enthusiasm. Inside the boat there was besides me and my wife, a kid with is parents. He has talking with another kid:D. That one was the factory "man". Both kids knew very well what they talked about, and the kid’s father was also an experienced sailor and the mother obviously new also about racing. They have made a command for one, and the kid is going to race with the big boys, and it looks that Mammy and Dad are also going to have fun sailing the boat ( I am not making up:D ).

    The kids have said that this boat is much easier to helm and more balanced than the Pogo.

    For producing this boat and the cruising version this small company has made a new factory in Tunisie. They have lots of commands, for the racing, but even more for the cruising version, that is going to be available in 2007.

    http://www.marclombard.com/
    http://www.kervilor-vanek.com/
    http://nunavuk.com/atao/index.php?2006/07/26/24-l-akilaria-dernier-ne-de-la-class-40-

    In what concerns me, I wanted to look around, but also to know if they have plans for a bigger cruising boat, and yes, they will make a 42 or 44ft boat (it is planned for 2008 or 2009).
    We talked about the price and it looks that it is going to be inside my budget.Nice:)

    If you look at the hull you are going to see that it is not completely round. It has a kind of chine. There is another 40class boat with chines. They say it helps the transition for planning. What do you think of it?

    Take a look at the photos I have taken – nice boat isn’t it?

    Regards
     

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  4. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    Thanks, Vega.... that's the kind of thing I can get excited about....great specifics! I'd love to know what people are saying after the Lombard faces the Finot on the racecourse. How about Roland and other likely designers....do they have Class40 boats in the water yet?

    So Paul, do you think a boat like this would generate interest on the U.S. West Coast? Would it help if a U.S. designer did one? I could imagine Columbia doing a boat like this to compliment the Columbia 30, couldn't you?
     
  5. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Sthephen...It’s Paulo, Portuguese name for Paul;) .

    Stephen, I have to work....I’ll try to reply to the other questions later, after do some working.

    Yes, Rolland designed a class40, it is called “Jumbo”, take a look here:

    http://forums.boatdesign.net/showthread.php?t=14468&page=2

    About “Akilaria”, do you know that boats was the first leader of the race.? After that during the first week, Dominic (the skipper) and Gildas Morvan (the big favorite and 2º at the finish) exchanged several times the leadership, till Dominic blow the spinnaker away. The boat was doing at that time 23k. He went to Azores to pick a new one, but after that he had a disagreeable encounter with the Azores anti-cyclone: No wind.

    http://nunavuk.com/atao/index.php?2006/11/21/56-recit-de-mon-rhum

    I know that you have a slight problem with the French:p , but take a look at the Photos.
     
  6. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    Actually, the question above was a U.S. domestic coast-to-coast communication intended for Paul B, who seems to know about racing on our left coast. If Class40 is so practical relative to the alternatives, could it take in California?
     
  7. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Our local PHRF board has a history of trying to keep fast boats out, so it is no surprise they have rated the 5.7 at 36 seconds per mile faster than a J24. Of course it is not sailing to that rating at all.

    It looks like it would cost around $30,000.00 US (from the US West Coast Dealer) for a fully fit out boat, on the starting line. I would look at used boats myself. I could buy a couple of race-ready Moore 24s for the same price if I lived in SF/Santa Cruz and race OD. I live in Socal, so I could buy an Olson 30 for about half that and race OD in a faster boat. A pretty nice Melges 24 could be had for just about that amount as well.

    On the other hand people have been spending that much on new I14s, and they don't give you the versatility of the 5.7 for daysailing with the family. They do have decent class racing, for the moment. The 5.7s do not, not yet anyway.
     
  8. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    :p :p :p A Paul/Paulo confusion:p
     
  9. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I doubt it. Anything could happen, but this type of boat has never caught on here.

    What would you race, PHRF? Is it good for bouy racing? If not, do you only do Mexican races and Transpac? For the same price you could buy a used OD48. For far less you could buy a used Schock 40. It seems the market is full of bargains on used performance boats out here. Without a class to race in it doesn't make much sense to most people to invest in something like a Class 40.

    It is sad that the J105 has been the biggest OD class out here for quite a while. A lot of good sailors have bought Cal 20s and race class (non spinnaker) as probably the most tactical racing in the area. Many of these people own bigger race boats as well, but spend as much time or more time racing the Cal 20.

    We have a pocket or two where the Beneteau 40.7s have caught on in the 40 foot size. The old J120s are still strong here and there. Unless you had 10 people ready to ante up for a Class 40 I don't see why anyone would make the move. You have to have someone to race against.
     
  10. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Vega, very nice boats in those pics! I must also say that the only time I sailed an Open 60 I found it a real blast, although the boat has problems in other conditions.


    Some interesting Handicap National figures.


    37 - Pogo Classe 40

    35- Sydney 40

    33- Farr 40 OD

    32.5- Pogo 40 Cruiser

    32 - First 44.7 Racing
    31 - IMX 40
    30 - Mumm 30 and 36,

    29.5 - Open 750

    28.7 Beneteau 40.7 (average of various versions)

    27.5- 11m One Design, Bavaria 35 Match,

    27 - Open 650

    26- Hobie 33, Melges 24,

    25- Beneteau , Shamrock (skinny modern Etchells type)

    22/23 - Etchells (based on the X3/4 and Dehler Db2 yardsticks which are almost the same as the Etchell in most other places).

    21- First 31.7

    20- First Class 8, X 79, Mini Transat 650 (I think)

    19.5 - Pogo 650 (production Mini?)

    16.5- J/24, Laser SB3, Speed Feet 18 (Open 18 style?), Holland masthead IOR half ton (Shamrock)

    15.5- Dragon (?),

    15- Open 570. The International Flying Fifteen rates about the same as a Dragon under other systems so would probably go here or a bit slower.

    13.5- Arpege ('60s 1/2 tonner)

    11.5- Micro Prototype


    It's an interesting list, to my eyes. The Pogo 40 racer seems damn fast. The Pogo 40 Cruiser would be an interesting comparison, in $ and accomodation, to the IMX 40 which is quite an old design now. The comparison between the Sydney 40 and Farr 40 doesn't look right to me; depending which one is correct, the Pogo cruiser looks either fast, or damn fast.

    The Open 750, about $80k US, is rated slower than the Mumm 30 which here in Oz seems to be slower than the top Sportsboats (including the Stealth 780 which is carbon, has a full cruising interior, and can beat the Bethwaite 8 but costs about $100k Aus). However, the performance of our modern radical sportsboats down here may vary too much according to conditions to make comparisons easy or valid.

    The NZ Elliott 780, a cheap and conservative one design sportsboat, would be around 21, I think, but our trailable/sportsboats are only rated against other trailables and sportsboats.

    The Flying 15 isn't rated under HN but it's reliably rated in other places so it probably is slightly slower than the Open 570, but on the other hand it's a tiny little '40s design and probably much cheaper and easier to run and tow. ALso has a growing French fleet.

    It seems that you can choose the style you like and looking at these numbers, they'll all be reasonable performers; some of the Opens are damn fast, some just okay.
     
  11. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    Ct, interesting post. It looks like the Pogo is a real winner, if we consider $ for performance in the 40ft class.

    The Akilaria is not much more expensive and it is said that it has a superior construction. It costs 219 851 Euros (racing version).

    I don’t think that the Open 5.7 was designed as a race boat. The 5.7 appears 6 or seven years after the Open 7.5. This one is a monotype race boat. They say about it:

    “The 7.50 Open is a high performance one-design boat. It is currently the faster monohull for its size. The Groupe Finot applied all its experience from the very successfull Open 50' and 60' to develop this great raceboat.”

    http://www.finot.com/general/index_ang.htm
    http://www.premiumwanadoo.com/veloximages/thumbnails.php?album=3&page=1

    They have called it open, not because it is an Open boat, but because it inherits most of the knowledge Jean Marie has learned with the 50 and 60 open.

    The boat is an all carbon boat and an expensive boat and its diffusion was not wide.

    http://www.openproductions.com/classe/open-class.htm

    The 5.7 (and the 5.0) are recent boats that come in the line of the 7.5 Open, but are simpler and less expensive boats designed more to be used in sailing schools and as a fun boat and a fast day boat.

    They say about it:

    “The Open 5,70 is designed for sailing schools, renting, clubs and to be used by young people with a reduced surveillance and, in regatta, by anybody who have passed the age for dinghy acrobatics.”

    http://www.finot.com/general/index_ang.htm

    What has happened is that the boat is not only relatively inexpensive but also fast and it turned out to be the popular racing monotype that the 7.5 never was (too expensive).

    The boat is also very forgiven and very stable. It is a polyvalent boat that can be used for learning or daysailing with the family and for racing. It is also a safe boat, it is unsinkable and uncapsizable, (or at least it is what they say).


    There is already a European cup and I bet, soon they will have a world championship.

    It is said that it is easy to go downwind at 14K. The boat can be sailed at 18k and the speed record is at the moment 21.4K.

    I believe that the success of this boat has not to do with being fast, but with being fast, easy, polyvalent and inexpensive.
     
  12. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Since you already have you foil set why haven't you built your foiling boat? So much loud talking for two years about the simple mods needed to make you last non-foiler work, until you pitched it aside without making those "simple" mods. Time to move on to a far more complex problem when you can't master the simpler one.

    More loud talking. You keep telling everyone how cheap and simple it is to build, you keep posting the same posts of numbers and loadings and areas and weights, but never a drawing you have done of these designs. You can't build without plans, can you? If you have plans, show them. Better yet, build your foiler for the cheap money you claim and show us how well it goes. Join the Revolution!

    I'm sure there will be no good explanation for your inaction.
     
  13. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    How are these numbers arrived at, and how do we interpret them? I assume this is for the F40 with the fractional kite. What about with their masthead kite? Is the Pogo rated faster than a F40 masthead? Would that mean they are faster on a W/L course in a medium breeze, or does that mean they are rated faster because they have the potential to sail away in 30 knots power reaching in the Sourthern Ocean?

    Some of those numbers look a bit off, but overall it seems the numbers are pretty much spaced on known designs as I have seen in other places.

    If the Class 40 isn't any faster than a F40 masthead kite rig around the bouys then it isn't really blinding fast, is it?
     
  14. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    lost ,again

    "b", I think it's unfortunate that you -apparently- don't understand enough about the most leading edge technologies of sailing to respond in a somewhat civil manner to my previous proposal for a sportboat rule. Instead of doing that you seem to make a rather silly effort to attack me personally while at the same time showing that you have -apparently again-failed to read what I've written. Perhaps you behaved in similar manner when working on the "Rule" projects in which you failed so miserably.
    Too bad-it would be good to try to come up with a modern sportboat rule....
     

  15. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    You are a joke. Nothing but misdirection and hyperbole. You never answer any hard questions put to you. You have never posted any drawings you have done for any of the dozen or so "great" ideas you've been so vocal about.

    I did read one of your latest explanations about your latest "project". You couldn't post drawings because someone else hadn't time to draw them for you. That is the funniest thing a "designer" could say. Maybe not funny, just sad.

    Here's one idea for the Modern Sportboat Rule: Limited to one moving appendage. Most of us would choose a centerline rudder, pivoting about a vertical axis. Works pretty well in the TP52 class. You might choose something else, produce no drawings for how it would work, produce no working model, and declare it the greatest thing since sliced toast in hundreds of internet posts.
     
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