Oh Lordy (Doug)

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by bobothehobo, Nov 14, 2006.

  1. Jon Howes
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    Jon Howes Insomniac- sleep? Wassat?

    "Another question is:
    Doesn't the recent ORMA carnage i.e. the Route du Rhum, make you wonder how these fellas could be so stupid as to not be sailing on foils with solid wings. Jeez with average speeds under 30 knts they are barely moving.

    All you need is a moderate weather condition and you can show them how it is done around Fastnet Rock!"


    This is not a question, it is a plain and simple attempt to be obnoxious. As for Mr Greenwoods other comments along the lines of "have you ever..." I have done plenty, it's called experience, some good, some bad, some pointless , much still to come. For example, two American bicycle builders engaged brain, built, and then flew an aircraft in 1903, they had never even been up in a balloon. Does this mean it did not happen?

    "That's an interesting comment from someone that thinks they deserve respect"

    I could not care less about respect, developing this thing has been (so far) eleven years of damned hard work. Armchair experts or "Experienced Sailors and Boatbuilders" as you put it, who insist on implying that we just dropped this thing on the water after a good night in the pub do not deserve any respect whatsoever. I am happy to answer questions, I will not field belittling rubbish unless you want a stroppy response which you got.

    As for the only real question to appear since the last blast: Speeds at which things happen:

    Full flight is expected at 47kts. Below this speed some weight is carried by the hull and I do not have reliable drag data other than some basic CFD (unreliable with spray) and some flying boat hull data so although the wind speed to boat speed ratio is non-linear below this speed and is poorer at lower speeds the exact function will have to wait for some real data. As Bob Downhill of Weymouth Speedweek/Icarus fame etc said, the first ten knots can be the hardest! Personally I think that the next few knots can be pretty interesting as well.

    The clean wind speed ratio for marginal flight is 3.44 times wind speed, ie, full unstick needs a 13.7 knot wind at the mean rig height. As speed is gained the rig is vectored forwards (bias tab on the rig) to reduce the vertical lift component and again, things get a bit non-linear although this ratio remains roughly constant until things start to break. All this is estimation validated by models so we shall see.

    Jon.
     
  2. DGreenwood
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    DGreenwood Senior Member

    This is not a question, it is a plain and simple attempt to be obnoxious. As for Mr Greenwoods other comments along the lines of "have you ever..." I have done plenty, it's called experience, some good, some bad, some pointless , much still to come.

    It is fact part of a very big question. A question that you so far have refused to answer. That is: Doesn't it worry you in an age where many great minds equipped with so much information about a topic they have been toiling over for so many years are so easy to best, and by such a large margin?
    I am not being obnixious, I would just like my question answered without a string of aeronautical jargon.
    You have designed an impressive looking machine and I am sure you"re a talented engineer. I don't doubt any of that. But, to use your method of analogy, you are not telling me you have found a way to fly for a few hundred feet, you built an F16 in your barn.


    I am not equipped with the education in fluid dynamics to refute your claims that these speeds are possible. None the less you have to see that your claims do come across as arrogant.
    Some of my experience has been in watching already scarce sponsorship, squandered by less than realistic programs. I cannot control those outcomes completely, but I can damn sure ask some questions about what you are up to...and, as you have shown, you can damn sure not answer them.
     
  3. Kaa
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    Kaa Wanderer

    LOL. Very much reminds me of:

    Everything that can be invented has been invented.
    -- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. patent office, 1899

    Kaa

    P.S. Yeah, I know, the quote is an urban legend.
     
  4. water addict
    Joined: Jun 2004
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    water addict Naval Architect



    See if I'm getting this right, so at 13.7 knot wind speed the craft weight is balanced purely by aero forces and the boat speed falls along the line of 3.44 * wind speed? So at about 14 knots wind speed you expect in the vicinity of 48 knots boat speed? And 18 knots gives over 60 knots boat speed? That is impressive if I read this right.

    Another question- if it's estimation validated by models, how could you get 3 significant figures of accuracy without spending about a million bucks on your model? (just being a bit of a pain here I know, tongue in cheek)
     
  5. Jon Howes
    Joined: Jun 2004
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    Jon Howes Insomniac- sleep? Wassat?

    Kaa:

    Some sense! I can only agree with you wholeheartedly.

    Greenwood:

    "A question that you so far have refused to answer"

    Sorry, what question have I refused to answer?? If you ask me a sane question I will attempt to answer it. This is many years work, I am hardly going to be able to give you everything in a couple of forum responses. Let me see:
    Foil design, a right little ******* of a problem

    Six degree of freedom stability across the entire speed range from rest to full chat, Hardly trivial

    Free feathering rig stability, This one took me four iterations and near total despair before I cracked it

    Single point water reaction, nice in principle but non-trivial in solution

    Model testing, consider the wind gradient, for a model this is extreme, can you visualise the problem of doubling of wind speed for a couple of inches gain in ride height?

    Model testing again, how to record what is happening to a model with sufficient fidelity to mean anything when fed back into a math model.

    "Doesn't it worry you in an age where many great minds equipped with so much information about a topic they have been toiling over for so many years are so easy to best, and by such a large margin?"

    Who in hell said that this has been easy?????? What do you not understand about "damned hard work"???? It might fail, your approach will (has?) failed, how fast have you or anything that you have done gone? I may not ultimately be proved correct but at least I have not simply sat on my backside and criticised other's efforts. Perhaps it is time to stop this before anyone is embarrassed any further. Give credit for trying or put up and shut up.

    If the question is "why has it not been done by someone else" (which is what it looks like to me unless you explain otherwise) then this is the argument of ********* who do not understand invention. It needs no further comment, get medical help.

    Jon,

    Happy to answer real technical questions from anyone, even Mr Greenwood!

    PS, To Water addict, Yes, you are broadly right about the wind speed ratio but it all goes non linear past lift off speed. The numbers would be pretty poor for a current ice boat but are what pops out of analysis for this wet boat.

    The three sig fig, you are completely correct, of course we cannot expect anything like this level of accuracy but you know what math models are like! I could have given you 1 sig fig or 10 sig figs, take your pick.
     
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  6. gggGuest
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    gggGuest ...

    Do you know *anything* about Moth development? Or for that matter the facilities and finance available to Lindsay Cunningham with Yellow Pages Endeavour?
     
  7. DGreenwood
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    DGreenwood Senior Member

    Urban legend or not, I certainly do not subscribe to that sort of thinking. I will (and have) donated time and some of my scarce money to those who dream of achieving a new level of excellence. However I have tired of the hotshot that strolls in and tells 'em how it's done.. They burn a pile of money and find out that they could have contributed something real had they allied themselves with people who have already been down the road with this stuff.

    Now to be clear, I am not accusing Mr Howes of any such behaviour. Genius falls out of the sky sometimes. Sometimes these things are just simple ideas that completely change the world. Maybe hidden in all talk about fluid dynamics and different effecting forces is a secret that will revolutinize sailing.
    I want to know what that is?
    Can he build a radically stronger structure? Can he radically reduce the loads on that structure, is there something that we have all missed? To date many attempts by skilled engineers has resulted in much shredded carbon and hexcel. Some have upped the anti by a couple of knots.

    I just don't think that any realistic campaign to reach the goal he is after, would feel so superior as to brush off questions about such extravagant claims, as the rantings of a fool. I don't think he believes it himself.

    Am I skeptical...Yup...am I cynical...a little. After you have worked your *** off and spent your money on few hucksters and scoundrels, you learn to ask hard questions. Believe me, they all sounded so sure of themselves.
     
  8. Jon Howes
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    Jon Howes Insomniac- sleep? Wassat?

    Mr Greenwood,

    I am about to give up on this:

    "I just don't think that any realistic campaign to reach the goal he is after, would feel so superior as to brush off questions about such extravagant claims"

    ASK ME A REAL TECHNICAL QUESTION AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO ANSWER IT!!!!!

    GET IT???

    Jon.
     
  9. DGreenwood
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    DGreenwood Senior Member

    Here is some I have already asked!
    Can you build a radically stronger structure? Can you radically reduce the loads on that structure, is there something that we have all missed? To date many attempts by skilled engineers has resulted in much shredded carbon and hexcel.
    Why won't it happen to you?
     
  10. patrik111
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    patrik111 Junior Member

    FFF, let the man speak.

    Let the man speak without needless stupid questions.

    I for one are more than happy to realise that invention rarely comes from people sitting on their ***. Let failing be an option!

    Leonardo da Vinci said once something along the line:

    Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory.

    And yes, I realise qouting him makes me one of the persons using my memory, but also I do happen to agree.

    But what I was really aiming to say is this:
    You do ill if you praise, but worse if you censure, what you do not understand.

    I would like to hear more from this and intend to watch this space for further updates. The more the better!

    //Patrik
     
  11. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    Well, I enjoy a good argument now and then... but I'm going to interject with some of my own thoughts on the thing now that I've had a chance to read through more stuff about it.
    Do I think it could work? Yes. Getting the full scale unit to run in a stable condition is going to be tricky, to say the least, but the physics behind the thing appear sound as far as I can tell.
    Do I think it will crash out? Yes. Many times. Nobody has ever tried something like this before and it will take a lot of time and a lot of failed runs before it flies. Then again, how many gliders did the Wrights smash up before they finally got their airplane to work? How many Airfish went end-over-end before the Flarecraft flew? How many Moth foils snapped off, or snagged on debris, or just plain disintegrated, before they caught on? It'll take time and patience if such a radical idea is to be brought to life. (On that note, I would hope the Monofoil prototype will be overbuilt enough to take a few nose-dives in testing!)
    Do I think that Howes and Greenwood are being productive in their arguing? No. In fact, that exchange reminds me of the schoolyard taunting of a grade 5 class. DG, you're skeptical, and with good reason given your background. JH, you're proud of what you've done and fiercely protective of your pet project. Nothing wrong with either position, but be adults and discuss it rationally. We're better than our politicians, right?
     
  12. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    adults and innovation

    I don't think you can lump Jon Howes and DGreenwood together in the same category by a long shot. Mr. Greenwood started out with out-right antagonism, bordering on contempt, questioning the unmitigated gall of Mr. Howes in even suggesting that such a thing could be done given the fact that nobody else had done it. Huh? Approaching a discussion like that with a man that has spent years and considerable effort solving problems has got to be one of the most annoying things I have witnessed on a forum-since the last time it happened to me! If you can't be considerate of the effort,dedication and foresight represented by Mr. Howes work and ask a question in a respectful manner DON'T EVEN BOTHER!!!
    Mr. Greenwood,when you a approach a subject like this in an aggressve, uninformed(what did you say about Moths??!!),and disrespectful way you can't possibly expect someone of the caliber of Jon Howes to cater to a discussion with you-you're way off base.
     
  13. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Yes, I agree with Marshmat. Probably that thing is going to break a lot of records, if enough research and money are spent on it. As I have said I believe that for sailing in the open sea, that thing (I would not call it a boat) would have to be big and hugely expensive.

    It would be very interesting, but with the movement of the waves disturbing the flight of the wing, and at that speed, that thing would have to be driven like a race engine.

    I doubt that an autopilot would be good enough. In a sailboat, autopilots sometimes are not good enough, but it is not a big deal. With that animal, the first small error would make it break into small pieces.

    I can not see the use of the beast, except that it would be fun (and risky) to sail it, but the same thing was said regarding the first airplanes, so who knows?;)
     
  14. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    I saw something on the tube last night about the stealth bomber flying wing and they said it couldn't be flown without computers doing a bunch of the work. Will this thing be able to be used without computer help? Will it take more than 1 person to pilot it? What will the operator(s) actually have to do, besides steer (and keep from screaming)? Sam
     

  15. DGreenwood
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    DGreenwood Senior Member

    Marshmat
    The physics seem sound to me too. That is, within my limited understandeing of this stuff. And I have no problem believing that they will have a chance at breaking the mile speed record. Of course with the prerequisite crashing and breakages you mention. I never said I don't believe that. Hell I would support him even if I thought his chances were slim to none.
    What I object to is, the outrageous statements that they will approach double the existing record and that they will break ocean racing records by huge margins without some explaination of how it will stay together and how come their wing is so superior.
    Without some better explanation of what leads him to believe these claims,all this starts to sound like...well like a snake oil salesman. Maybe you need to make claims like that to get sponsorship these days. Maybe sensationalism is a sales tool? Maybe that is what I am missing.


    Yes I have taunted him, but I would disagree about the schoolyard thing.
    I just want to know why he thinks he can walk in with no background in high speed sailing and at first crack, completely blow away the work of many talented people and the combined skill of the French builders and millions upon millions of dollars of work in carbon fiber.

    And as far as this being productive...maybe you are right, but look at it this way, either I will eat crow---big time--- and learn a valuable lesson or many will learn some things about recognising BS when they see it.

    Now I will take Kaas advice and let the man talk. If I haven't totally pissed him off and he left.
     
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