Concept Foiler Rendering

SEANT: Concept Foiler Rendering

SEANT, May 8, 2004
    • Rating:
      Wonderfully wierd design.. and a killer render to boot. Dont' know much on the foil design concept, about what speed would she plane?
    • SEANT
      Currently, I have no empirical data to support any performance specs but, in keeping with the concept, ease of getting on plane is highly desirable. This layout is already out there enough to repel the traditionalist so Im personally not opposed to power assistance in that transition stage. Actually, the concept may be more practical as a motorsailer. Even by my most optimistic predictions it would be a real pig in a dead run. What do you think? A motorsailer of this size capable of 20 25 Knots from 100 HP; is there a market?
    • Rating:
      Seant, I've just sent you a note...couldn't send an email. I'd love to communciate about your project and get feedback about mine. I posted the "catalyst-catster" rough sketch. Rollee is probably the fastest...I dont' check in here very often!
    • Rating:
      it should be in the water, not on the rocks :d
    • SEANT
      I was afraid the concept was so far "out there" that it wouldn't float!
    • kach22i
      Very cool, you need to start an animation showing it in action. Perhaps this will help you think through the workings of it.

      I see your diagram does a pretty good job of this explaination already.
    • Rating:
      That is nice Drawing............. look like a unidectional-porpulsional-platform drive to me.:D
    • Rating:
      I've been browsing these forums for a few weeks now, and this image finally prompted me to register.

      A few questions.

      It appears that this foiler uses a type of leading edge slat to change the symmetry or effective camber of the wing. I am not terribly familliar with these but should not the angle of attack always (aside from a run with the spinnakers) be within 45 degrees from the wind?

      Isn't a foil faster running than a spinnaker, such as with the ustayed aerorig?

      Although I see that the hull lends itself to placing them before the wing, the spinnakers might be placed behind the wing and allowing you to transition immedeatly without comming off-plane.

      All in all, a very interesting design. I have been toying with the idea of a non-directional hull for a while now, but this is much more elegant.
    • SEANT
      I should clarify the purpose for creating and posting these renders; they were primarily geared towards concept introduction/illustration. And, as such, the emphasis was visual impact. I believe these renders were relatively successful in that regard, but the design itself is lacking serious practical consideration.

      Case in point - the adjustable forward slat you refer to is probably not the most efficient method of enhancing lift. A trailing edge flap would no doubt be more effective, but I could not work that into the design with as asthetically pleasing shape.

      Visual impact also influenced the scale of the vessel. I'd certainly love to see that particular vessel built but think it is highly unlikely. The original concept was for a one man, fresh water, sailboat of good speed and extreme manuverabilty. The type of manuverability that would require the operator be bolstered in place. Trimming sail and alterring direction via one set of controls lent itself to that goal. Consequently the notion of balance and positioning of spinnakers for the craft as rendered has not been thoroughly analyzed. In fact, the smaller craft may better achieve it's performance goal with just a basic symetrical wing.

      The other benefit of the smaller scale is that it is within my resources to build. I am working on a general design (work progesses slowly, however) and when ready will post it here. I will certainly welcome all input before a design is finalized.
    • J.D.Hogg
      So does that mean bug-off?:D

      Mostly I was reffering to your 'concept foiler diagram'. Maybe that's just a rough scetch or maybe I'm looking at it wrong but I have an idea that it could sail with one minor difference. A change in the method of operation, not design.
    • SEANT
      Saying I welcome all input is an understatement.
    • J.D.Hogg
      Essentially, I would suggest a layout analogous to one half of an airplane on its side. The "horizotal" stabilizer , vertical in this case, could be an enlarged version of the structure you have to carry the antennas above the cockpit (sorry my boating terminology is limited). This now vertical stabilizer would point the wing into the wind. A rudder or trim device attached could then be used to direct thrust to port or starbord. The foils might then be used to steer, all aimed in the same direction. This would neccesitate the use of aft mounted spinnakers, as turning the actual hull off the wind would be impossible or impracticle.

      I picture this boat always pointing, if you consider the leading edge the bow, but in reality all points of sail would be achieved as the foils become the hull. Which is what I think was intended. Correct?

      Anyway, just my thoughts on it.
    • SEANT
      I also used an airplane analogy while developing this idea. Most of the similarities to an airplane were happening below water, however. Here is a link to a pdf version of the diagram which may be more readable than the JPEG.

      With my layout, directional control at low waterspeed would be a problem. It was one of the reasons I felt that some auxillary power may be required; at least enough to get action across the foils. At that point, orienting the sail would allow wind power to provide the driving force.

      Of course a myriad of problems may manifest themselves at low wind speed, and is the reason I expect problems at anything beyond a broad reach.

      Your "vertical stablizer" would be somewhat immune to a low waterspeed condition but equally hampered by low windspeed. Perhaps the two together would provide some balance.

      I take it that you also foresee trouble in any upwind to downwind transition.

      I suppose my best hope would be maintaining momentum from a fairly high waterpeed reach. Use the that speed across the sub-surfaces foils to orient the craft - stall the main wing- and transfer power to the spinnackers.

      You propose a aft mounted spinnaker as a method to avoid having to turn the hull off wind. Is the notion that this chute would weathercock the vessel to essentially run backwards?
    • J.D.Hogg
      A vertical stabilizer, if large enough to be effective in low wind, would prevent the craft from turning off wind. Without it i forsee many an 'in irons' situation in low winds and knockdowns in high winds, both from having the wing abeam to the wind.

      On second thought, the location of the spinnakers is probably irrelevant, it's just that running backwards would allow a faster transition.

      I should have asked this earlier; is the idea to postion the wing using the foils?
    • SEANT
      Yes, the idea is to position the main wing with the foils. With the wing as a rigid part of the superstructure, the entire boat must orient itself accordingly. In fact, the only time the boat would travel in a non "crabbing" mode would be when running with the wind, spinnaker flying.

      You do bring up yet another issue that has been poorly addressed with the design as shown. Reefing the mainsail in highwinds. But, as already stated, the design is conceptual. And in that conceptual world, the wind blows at a steady 15 knots. ;)
    • J.D.Hogg
      I suppose a proof of concept is required and is standard parctice.

      The only reason I have such strong opinions is that this is somwhat similar to an idea i have had, though distinctly different as well. I really have no experience in boat design or building but my desire to learn these things is what lead me to this site. So please take whatever I say with more than a grain of salt.

      I was trying to think of ways to share my ideas visually as this and a few other things have made me aware of my lack of tools, My ibook is loaded with graphics programs but it's down with a bad drive, and now I'm back on a windows machine.

      As you obviously have a solid grasp of modeling what if any are your recommendations in terms of 3d software?
    • SEANT
      I use windows exclusively, though I have nothing against Mac's. My recommendations, thusly, will be quite biased.

      Several applications were used to produce these renders, primarily Rhino2 and 3DS Max 3 with Vray plugin. Autocad 2000 and CorelDRAW 9 also had their contributions. From that list of characters you may correctly assume I'm not so interested in software investment as I once was.

      Another thing that should be mentioned is a recommendation should be based on the ultimate goal i.e., vessel construction, design presentation, etc.

      That said, I would still recommend Rhino (McNeel & Assoc.). I think it makes the best contribution to project of all scales. It is also relatively affordable. It does not run on macs, however.
    • J.D.Hogg
      Thanks, rino demo is pretty slick.
    • kach22i
      SEANT, I don't know if you added to your rendering since the last time I viewed it, but it looks better than ever.

      Keep up the good work.

      Do you have any interest in hovercraft?
    • SEANT
      The rendering has not changed, though I have noticed that it can look quite different dependant on monitors.

      As far as Hovercrafts go; I'm very interested but don't have much experience with them. I've seen a few of the recreational sized version in the local waters and the operators appeared to be having a blast. The one drawback was the considerable noise, however.
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  • Category:
    Sailboats - Multihull
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    May 8, 2004
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