Which wood would you use?

If you use eastern white pine it will need to be dried pretty well. The cataloged modulus of rupture for EWP is: as sawn= 4,900, dry=8,600. In either case it is pretty soft. Compare it to slash pine at dry= 16,300. Big difference between white and yellow. Longleaf yellow pine at 14,500 dry used to be the lumber of choice for Florida boats. It is tough and has good rot resistance.

I suggest that you consult the book: The Encyclopedia Of Wood which contains a mountain of information about wood characteristics, durability, ease of processing and much more. It is a huge compendium of information from the US forestry Service, Department of Agriculture. If you do not have a copy of the book it may be available at your public library.

When building a boat you need sawn lumber that has the grain running parallel to the flat surface. Sometimes called vertical grain. Of course that means that you will not get the maximum area of boat lumber from your log. You will also need to air dry or kiln dry the sawn planks.

 

It wouldn't be the deck that is creosoted. It would be the bottom of the hull.

But not to worry, I'm not really thinking of going in that direction anyway. I just mentioned that the option is there.

My friend is going to use these creosoted poles to make decking on his porch deck. I wonder how that's going to work out? I have no clue yet as he has just purchased the poles and hasn't even cut them into lumber yet.

I hope he doesn't get creosote all over the sawmill.

I think there's also a danger that he might hit metal inside those poles thus ruining lots of blades. But he is using a metal detector and so we'll see.

I prefer to use virgin timber myself.

Right now I'm leaning toward the white pine. The white oak might be better but it's a lot more work and time consuming to cut.

I'll have to think about this. No rush, I don't plan on cutting the trees until winter anyway. I always cut all my lumber in the winter when there is no sap in the trees. Excess sap makes boards heavy and also fouls blades etc. Although excess sap could potentially help to preserve the wood longer, not sure about that. I just much prefer working with winter-cut lumber.

I think I'm going to go with the White Pine just because I'm lazy and that's the easiest wood to work with. That stuff slices up like loaves of bread. It's a breeze to work with and blades last all day long.

The White Oak would no doubt last much longer and be stronger, but it would take twice as long to cut up and I'd be spending a lot of time sharpening sawmill blades.

It might be worth it though. Twice as long is only two weeks instead of one week. If that can add decades to the life of the boat maybe it's the only sane thing to do?

 

That's worth looking into. I'd like to compare the white pine with the white oak too, but I'm sure the white oak is literally tons stronger.

Another thing too is that it's not just the geographical location and species, but even individual trees can have large differences between them. For example lumber cut from younger trees seem to be far stronger than older trees. Similarly, lumber cut from upper branches is typically stronger than lumber cut from the butt log. Especially in the case of Pine. Not so much with hardwoods.

I've had pine boards that are really tough, almost like maple, and then I've had pine boards that are so fragile they are almost like balsa wood. So it's hard to say what you'll get until you actually cut the lumber.

Although I can usually tell visually just by looking at a pine tree what kind of lumber it will produce. Middle aged pine that has long straight sections with no knots typically produces the strongest boards. I also have "field Pine" trees that have a very large trunk, but then split into four or five limbs that grow straight up. Typically those limbs produce very high quality lumber whilst the trunk produces far weaker boards.

I typically air dry for 6 months to a year. Then cut the boards closer to size and plane them smooth. Then cure that semi-prepared lumber in a make-shift solar kiln. That works pretty good to produce usable lumber within a year or a year-and-a-half.

 

DownEast boats have been built out of pine for centuries. I would call that traditional. In the size you are building, low density wood works fine. As boats get bigger, the impact against a dock or debris increases so harder woods are necessary. Unless you are looking for a fancy yacht finish, any quality oil base paint will do fine.

 

The thought of tongue and groove creosoted boards for the bottom waterline picked my interest, really tough stuff but hard to coat, a good bottom paint would do. Then use the pine above the waterline.
You must use gloves and a respirator cutting creosote, nasty stuff.

 

the reason why the old creosote treated poles are so cheap is they now have to be treated as toxic waste, so they are costly to dispose of.

the use of creosote has been banned for many uses because it is both toxic and considered a carcinogen.

Not sure I would want that in a deck or on my boat. might be okay if you wear a space suit and resporator when cutting it, you haul the outer layers to a toxic waste dump site, and than coat the stuff you use with 8 to 10 layers of paint or sealant.

 

I agree with everyone concerning the creosoted poles. That's not really a route that I am personally interested in. I only mentioned it in response to the mention of cedar. And the fact that my cousin just bought some to cut into decking lumber for his porch. I would personally not go there.

Also, I always use a respirator when cutting wood, partly because I have COPD and also allergies. I never have a problem when wearing a respirator. My cousin, on the other hand never wears a respirator and he probably won't even wear one when cutting these poles. I better mention this to him because I don't he even gave a single thought to the dangers of creosote, or breathing in the sawdust of creosoted wood.

In fact, I don't even see how he can run the sawmill without wearing a respirator even cutting fresh trees. I would never dream of breathing in all that sawdust. But he does this on a regular basis. In fact, this is actually his sawmill. I just borrow it. He loans it to me whenever I want. So I'm really lucky in that regard. I usually tip him about a hundred bucks for having borrowed it. But he doesn't even want to take that. I have to give him something I can't just use his mill for free. That's absurd.

I can easily cut $1000 worth of lumber in a day. And that's taking things easy. The last time I borrowed it I cut about $5000 worth of pure veneer grade Cherry. Slipped him a hundred bucks for the use of the mill and he says, "Ah, you don't need to pay me to borrow the mill".

Hey, I just got $5000 worth of prime lumber! I gotta at least give him a hundred bucks.

 

Cedar has toxic compounds (that keep it from rotting) that will do permanent damage to your lungs if you do not use at least a dust mast, respirator even better. Just because they are from a "natural" source does not mean it is not dangerous to your health.

I would hate to think what the combination of cedar plus creosote would do to the sensitive lung tissue that you depend on to stay alive.

 

This has been common wisdom for centuries. The red oak is quite porous, leading to water saturation and rot. Rain water worse than salt water, I've heard.

Has technology changed such that old information is obsolete, and red oak may be preferable over white oak?
If you want expoxy absorbed into the wood, wouldn't red oaks porosity be an asset?

 

That's an interesting theory.

I have both Red Oak and White Oak trees on my property. You can easily see the different in the color of the bark, but you can also see the difference when the trees die. When limbs die on a Red Oak they fall off fairly quickly (due to rot no doubt). But dead limbs on White Oak stay on the tree tenaciously for many years as totally dead limbs. They refuse to rot off.

I also have Scarlet Oak trees (a hybrid between the Red Oak and White Oak). You can tell the Scarlet Oak trees because they look like Red Oak (dark bark and dark wood), but the dead limbs don't fall off. So I guess the Scarlet Oak has the same non-rotting properties as the White Oak. But it's actually darker (redder) and appears as Red Oak).

So I imagine that Scarlet Oak would be good to use too.

But you might be right about the porous property and using preservatives?

That's an interesting point. Red Oak might actually be ok to use with today's chemical products.

 

I wasn't making a statement. I was posing a question.

 

I'm not technically a wood expert myself. However, I can tell you from experience that White Oak is far stronger and tougher than Red Oak in general.

I know this just from having worked with these woods. I also chop these logs in the winter for heat and Red Oak chops apart far easier than White Oak.

White Oak is tough stuff.

I don't think that treating Red Oak is going to make it stronger. At best it will only keep it from rotting.

 

Fortunately in Florida, there is no end of Southern Live Oak. But not commercially cut. Have to fell and saw up yourself I reckon.
Might be the best of the boatbuilding oaks. Toughest. Old Ironsides was built from Live Oak. And live oak knees are among the best.

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/live-oak/

We also have lots of Pin Oak. Strong ...but not rot resistant as it's a member of Red Oak Clan. very porous. Again I thing saturating with epoxy might fix that problem.

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/pin-oak/

 

Thanks for the wood database links Yobarnacle.

After looking through that database it appears that White Oak is definitely the wood I should go with. It's listed as a boatbuilding wood with high resistance to rot. I have lots of white oak trees so that's the wood to use.

White Pine is also listed for use in boatbuilding, but I'm sure it is less resistant to rot than the White Oak.

I'll have to decide about this. It's a trade off.

The oak would make for stronger and longer lasting boats.

But the pine is far easier and faster to cut.

The oak will make for heavy boats.

The pine boats would be lighter weight.

So there's pros and cons for both.

If I was 20 years old I'd go for the oak for sure.

But at 65 the pine boats might outlast me anyway.

So the temptation to go with the easier-cutting, lighter-weight wood is quite tempting.

The oak takes twice as long to cut into lumber. Not to mention having to resharpen the blades all the time. A testament to just how tough oak truly is.

But it is a beautiful wood to work with. Solid as a rock and almost as heavy!

I'm torn. I'll decide later.

 

Traditional Chinese junks were once built with lignum vitae (iron wood) bottoms and teak and fuchien pine (similar to long leaf yellow pine) topsides.

Maybe oak bottom and pine topsides.
Oak for frames definitely.