White Oak-Red Oak?

I don't blame you for wanting white oak. For a larger rowing boat, nothing indiginous comes close. For a kayak, laminated ash coated with epoxy would be fine, and very available kiln dried.
The bigger boat...ask the advice of Brooklin Boat Yard in Brooklin, Maine. Or Brad Story (Essex, Mass) down near you. Both are wood boat builders who would use steamed white oak.

Alan

 

Great to read up on the white vs red oak in boat building. I signed up for this forum to ask some questions of my own...

I have an opportunity to buy some white oak(approx. 2000bf). I have not worked much with white oak but have this 14' Canadian Dart(1950's vintage Peterborough) that is powerwed by a 20hp 4-stroke). It leaks pretty bad due to several broken ribs that allow water to seep in especially when standing in those weal areas.
Would this material be appropriate for steaming and bending the needed half round ribs? I have done a fair amount of cedar canvas conoe construction and am used to bending ash, cherry and white cedar... so was thinking that this would be the correct approach!?

Thank you in advance for all your help! If anyone is interested I could attach photos of my latest cedar canvas canoe project including fabrication of the form on which to make the canoe...
Barrett

 

yard trees scare me.... i have my own sawmill...and yard trees usually have nails in them ..once i found a horse shoe in one.
but normally you can spot the metal by the bluish discolored area ...
anyhow...interesting thread..
ive got lots of white oak..and itching to build a brockway skiff ..
peabody

 

I realize this an old post but it didn’t seem that the question was ever answered. The only thing similarities between red and white oak is the name “oak”. These are two structurally different woods. I would not use red oak for anything personally outside. However, it’s my understanding white oak was used for centuries in ship building particularly seawater, porches, house cladding, etc. I know we had it on several houses, no treatment,you sanded it down, repainted and went on for years and years.
But the difference is really in the way the tree grows inside. I think and others may say the same thing, white oak has a sweeter smell when sawing or burning. Also looking a the grain, on flat sawn white oak and red oak, you will see the rays on the surface of red are about 1/2”, where white they are at least 1”. If there isn’t any finish on the wood, red oak is reddish pink and white oak is a light brown. But red can fade to brown. The differences can be pronounced if just fresh cut, or more subtle if the woods are older, have been sitting around under various environmental conditions, or you have mixed species. There is only one red oak (Quercas rubra) and of white oak (Quercas alba), but there are numerous other varieties that get grouped under “red oak” or “white oak” based on their characteristics, thus many variations in color. All of this can make differentiating species more difficult.

To me, it’s the end grain where the big difference is seen and where performance is most noted. Red oak is more porous (open celled - think of tiny straws) compared to white oak which is closed celled. If you can’t see it due to end sealing, make a fresh, useable cut on the end of the boards. A visual end grain inspection in your red oak versus white oak test reveals more open cells in red oak than in white oak. The reason for this is the continuous nature of red-oak cells vs. the segmentation of white-oak cells. *A red oak versus white oak* pore test shows the white oak pores are plugged with tyloses, or outgrowths, that work to protect the woods from damage. This key difference increases white oak’s resistance to rot and decay.
Another test you can conduct is a wicking test. If you place red oak with the end grain down in denatured alcohol, the alcohol wicks through quickly, while doing the same thing with white oak results either in no signs of wicking or only slight evidence at radial checks. In fact, the cell structure of red oak is so consistent that you can typically submerge one end of a short piece of red oak in water and blow bubbles through it. Red oak doesn’t last very when continually exposed to water or even on a regular basis. Those straw like pores just suck the water up.

The above tests are subject to interpretation, some think the end grain is better, others think looking at the difference in the rays are better. But there is a 100% method. If you have some oak and you need to know the difference between them, there is another test you can conduct that is fool proof — a color-changing experiment utilizing Sodium nitrite, (NaNO2,); (NOT Sodium nitrate, (NaNo3,). Make up some fresh shavings (no finish of any type), put in a tiny dish, and apply a bit of the diluted solution of sodium nitrite to fresh shavings (no finish of any type) The solution may darken red oak slightly, but it will turn white oak a dark color - dark grey, some say deep indigo or deep green, or black. There is a non profit website called The Wood Floor Conservancy. The link below takes you a page talks about the telling the difference in white versus red oak and includes a video and information on 100% accurate chemical test to determine if white oak or not. It points out about the rays on the two types, the holes in the end grain, and the chemical test. There is also a kit listed so you don’t have to buy big bottles to have hanging around as you only use a little bit to make 5% solution (2 Oz to a quart of distilled water). White Oak Test https://www.woodfloorconservancy.org/white-oak-test.html

I’m brand new to this site, so I hope you can list links. If not and they get eliminate the link - just look up the organization, and then search for “White Oak Test Instructional Video”. Best of luck and leave that red oat alone except for interior cabin trim, or at home.

 

Right now a good species to use for framing, particularly for steam bending, is ash. Due to the amount of dead trees from ash borer, there is a surplus of supply. In fact many places are giving logs away for free.

 

Southern Yellow Pine, especially Long Leaf Yellow Pine is excellent as framing or planking. SYP can be found cheaply at most lumber yards. Inspect it well for straight clear grain. One of the best, most versatile wood for boat building.

 

Will, is there an easy way to identify long leaf from the other yellows? It all looks the same to me at the store.

 

A kayak doesn't need a lot of wood. Flooring is probably the best quality lumber you will find at the store.

 

Not that I'm aware of. All the pines marketed under the name SYP are heavy and hard and good for boat building. Clark Mills, an old family friend of my father's framed many of his boats in it. It is only recently I learned there was more than one species by that name.

-Will

 

You need to buy green wood for steam bending. It is possible to soak oak for a couple of weeks but the results are not as good.

 

What kind of bending do you need to do for a canoe gunnel? It's not like making a pair of snow shows or a bent wood rocker. Is the plan to bend around the end also?

I think for a radius greater that 4 feet, white oak should steam very well.

 

As long as red oak is higher and dry and painted or sealed in some goo especially on the end grain, it is going to be ok for the inside framing of a wood boat. Otherwise, some good wood for framing I used was PT SYP, and all those frames have been great, holds bronze screws well too. But I also did paint the wood frames before assembly, if they were going into the low bilge area using acrylic latex primer and paint, or even smearing on a coating of PL premium polyurethane in a very thin layer. Just dont use wood with large knots, and you can upsize a little too. I have even sliced up PT SYP and glued smaller pieces together to create wider pieces to get rid of large knots, using what most would consider junk wood for boats. And you dont want to frame up soaking wet wood for obvious reasons. I have looked at a lot of PT SYP, and you can find tighter growth ring wood which I think is better. As long as it is rated 'ground contact' it is ok to use. I have wondered if PT somewhat changes wood as in crushing - closing down some of the porosity to water. If the wood is going to be glued up, I always run the edges thru the table saw to give the glue open grain for the glue to stick better. I have had a few glue failures when not doing that regardless of the glue used, including epoxy or PL Premium. An underused glue is Titebond 2, it glues up PT wood well. Some of the best SYP is older even gnarly looking on the outside weathered wood that has proven itself after years of outdoor survival, when resurfaced it looks like new. Especially so if it was CCA treated, which all the older PT was at one time. I found a 4x4 must have been put in the ground back in the late 60's or 70's which was heavy tight grained dense CCA PT SYP with no knots and was in perfect shape, not twisted or any rot. I used that wood for the bow sampson post (about 5.5 feet of it) and it proved itself in a very windy thunderstorm on the Chesapeake anchored out. But I could tell it was good wood for the purpose before I used it. The original wood was a 3x3 piece of douglas fir, so the 4x4 was an upsize from that. had to reframe around the post for that, which needed to be done anyway, as some rot had set in to the under deck support. I used PT wood to do that framing.