West system old wooden boat.

[jeff goldberg]

I have a 1960 White. This is a lapstrake wooden boat.It leaks like a siv.I have tried cleaning out all the seams below water and filling them with 5200. That worked for a short time.I reliaze this boat is to have some water in it but it has gotten out of control.I want to west system the bottom.It is a twenty foot boat so turning it over is pretty much out of the question.I have seen a couple of boats simular to mine that have been west systemed and it seem to work well for them.I am lookin for suggestions ,opinions and first hand experience.I have used the west system and have full confidence in it.I have done small repairs on the boat with great results.But doing the bottom up to just past the waterline is another thing entirely.One of my greatest concerns is the flexing of the boat. And if if I get a great bond to the wood do you think the west system will flex with the boat and stay laminated or do you think it will just come undone the first time Im in rough seas .I look forward to your input.

Happy wooden boat owner. Jeff Goldberg

[Bremner]

jeff,
This is a little out of the box what if you placed the west system inside on all the seams would it not find a natural path into the seams and seal the wood, yet still leave most of the wood the ability to flex??

[Bergalia]

Jeff, one trick the old timers' used (if they found themselves in Valparaiso) was to anchor next to the saw mill. The sea was awash with sawdust which was sucked up into the leaking seams - giving the perfect 'caulk'.
However, last time I was down there the saw mill had closed - so that's no good. But - and I've done this myself with a couple of lapstrake timber hulls - strip out the interior of all perishables and sink her to the deck line - and leave her for at least a month. Sounds drastic - but it works. Cleaning up is the hardest part.

[Raggi_Thor]

If you don't intend to keep the wood dry by covering it completely (inside, out, between...) with epoxy you should use a more flexible calcing material. If you fill cracks with epoksy and the wood swells, something else will break, like the frames or the fasteners. A nice winter project could be to dry the boat very well, strip all of the interior, cover both sides with epoxy and refit the interior :-)

[gonzo]

5200 will separate from wood in below the waterline applications. Use Lifecaulk instead or a two part polysulfide caulk. Make sure the seams are clean and use the appropiate primer.

[Roly]

A good site I found:

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1101

The bottom line is that you are re-engineering the hull loading by glass/epoxy
sheathing. If you are prepared to do that, with eyes wide open to the variables/cost,you will be able to build attributes into the design which the
boat originally lacked. All designs are a trade off. Strength/weight/speed/comfort/cost.
Gougeon Bros on boat construction ....also a great resource

IMHO

[artemis]

Originally Posted by gonzo

5200 will separate from wood in below the waterline applications. Use Lifecaulk instead or a two part polysulfide caulk. Make sure the seams are clean and use the appropiate primer.

Thanks Gonzo. Over the years I have lost count of the times I've told people "re-caulking" carvel planked hulls NOT to use 5200 beneath the water. Some listened, some didn't - and some of those boats with 5200 leaked, and some didn't. On a VERY few occassions the Lifecaulk leaked, but it was usually due to improper application (nice thing about Lifecaulk, it will continue to cure underwater).

[PAR]

I think I've answered this poster's questions before on this subject, but here goes.

The White you have is a great boat. It's construction and materials are first class. Re-engineering the construction method isn't a good idea, without a complete understanding of the concepts and principles involved in the process (and a total dissemble and re-construction)

Glued lapstrake construction and traditional lapstrake construction are two different animals, relying on different methods to keep water out. The two methods don't mix well and shouldn't be attempted, if long life and resale value are considered.

Epoxying the seams is an attempt to glue the seams and this isn't a glued seam design. Epoxy, in this application, is only advisable if total encapsulation is performed (imposable unless the hull is completely disassembled) Just epoxying the seams will create hard spots along the seams which will cause the frames and laps to have breaks and tears in short order. There is no goo in a can, quick fix for a lapstrake hull. Lapstrake is one of the more difficult construction methods to repair. It's the nature of the type and isn't changed with the addition of some plastic in her seams.

Sinking a lap or any construction type isn't a good idea, though I've seen it done also, it's not what the structure is intended or designed to withstand. I've seen this method burst open small boat's seams, directly the opposite effect they were hoping for, when the sinking idea was used.

Wood in good condition, will swell on it's own, just finding a balance with it's environment, be it on land or in the water. Trouble comes in when we become unwilling to wait for this to occur naturally and try to force the issue. There are several safe methods to swell up a hull, using sprinkler systems, etc.

Plywood lapped hulls swell much less then solid lumber planking. Your White is a plywood planked hull.

You only have a few options open to you. Replace the planking and repair any frame damage (45 year old planking is well past it's working life). Refasten with new screws and clenches or refasten with new screws and tighten up the old clenches (two man job and a bitch to do)

A trailered boat can live with polyurethane (3M 5200 or similar) in the seams, but a moored boat can't and you're better off with a polysulfide or a more traditional compound.

Not for nothing, but I can pretty much guarantee several frames are cracked or broken clean through on this hull. The frames will have tension breaks/cracks and rot in their ends, especially in the forefoot area and near the transom. Once the planking fasteners get loose, frame damage occurs very quickly. This is a lightly framed boat (white oak - molded ~1/2", sided ~1" on 6" centers) and you'll have many breaks (this is normal on a 45 year old structure) I know these boats like the back of my hand.

There are many White's in Maine, many builders and restorers there also, that are very familiar with that White of yours. Seek one of these folks out and talk to them about repairs.