using IPE instead of teak

[fishweed]

Does anyone know if IPE is a good wood to use as a rubrail or a toe rail on a boat, I have to replace all of the wood and I want somethng that will wear good and look good

[Carioca]

Have you had any experience working with Ipê?

On the downside, ipê is a hard and heavy species. Hard on your wood-working tools ! It also does not take well to epoxy-based glues, but there is a way around this, namely, wipe down the mating surfaces with acetone, torch them and then let them cool down prior to gluing.

On the upside, Ipê lasts INDEFINITELY- literally - come rain or sunshine ! Rock-solid stuff !

Don´t know about how it fares in below-zero temperatures though, but there are no restrictions for its use in our southernmost - and coldest - state of Rio Grande do Sul.

The board walk in Altantic City, NJ is Brazilian Ipê too !

[Carioca]

In haste !

There is a "look-alike" wood that in this country goes by the (sham !) name of "Ipê Champagne". It is generally of a lighter shade than Ipê.

The indigenous name of this look-alike is "Cumarú" but sham lumber yards do not use this name !

I believe that they are selling Cumarú up-north too.

Great - and as beautiful looking as Ipê when varnished - for INDOOR CABINETS and FURNITURE.

A DEAD-LOSS when exposed to the elements - IT WILL ROT ! Stay away from Cumarú and/or Ipê Champagne !

[fishweed]

Thanks, I have found that IPE is cheaper than teak, and more lumber yards have it here, it is used mainly for decking, what other glues work with this wood, or is epoxy the only one to use?

[Carioca]

Fishweed,
I have used Ipê laminations ( 4 X 7mm thick) to sister existing ribs in the below-the-water-line hull section of my boat.

The glue used was resorcinol-based, as epoxy is not a water-proof glue.

I took no risks, so the laminations were wiped down thoroughly with acetone, then torched, then let to cool for a few minutes, before finally applying resorcinol-based glue and C-clamps.

Two years have passed and there is no sign of delamination.

BTW, after taking off the C-clamps, the laminations and original ribs were through bolted with 1/4 " dia Silicon Bronze carriage bolts.

Keep in mind that resorcinol, unlike epoxy glue, does not fill voids between surfaces to be glued. so all surfaces need to be perfectly mated - and you need to have to have the temp. at or above 70 º F for the time it takes the glue to set (24-48 hours).

[Man Overboard]

Carioca,

I have a couple of questions; it is good to hear from someone who has used Ipe, as it is not easy to find up here in northern USA.
I'm not sure what you mean by "epoxy is not water-proof" Are you saying that it does not hold well when the wood is not completely encapsulated"?
Do you know of any one who has used it in a deck? I posted this question on this forum about 2 months ago you can read that post here:
Wood alternatives to Teak
When you say that you torch the wood, I assume that you do not burn it but rather just heat it considerably? What is the purpose of this? Is it to cause the resorcinol to thin and soak in better?

[Carioca]

Tom,

Ipê is full of resinous concoctions, some of which have been patented by the pharmocological industry ! The wiping down with acetone and torching have to do with ridding the mating surfaces (at least) of these resins.

My epoxy-gluing experience with Ipê was always disastrous before resorting to the latter technique.

Lucky to have been tipped off by a smart fellow who built a stunning 60-ft. Gloucester boat, Ipê strip-planking, epoxy all around and the rest of it. Had a 200 gallon drum of acetone at the ready when constructing the Gloucester !

Epoxy-glue is water proof ? I don´t think so, specially for below-the-water-line in a traditional wooden boat (red-lead primer etc), but OK for a modern, epoxied all-around wooden boat.

Ipê on your deck will be fine, specially if you run your calculations to undersize it on the basis of it´s engineering properties. Rememeber it is HEAVY ! But it hardly moves around at all, seasonally.

[Carioca]

Tom,

99% of our traditional ('saveiro") schooner-type vesels built in Brazil are Ipê, from head-to-toe.

That includes decking too, both fore and aft !

[Carioca]

Tom,

On torching ....

If the Ipê is perfectly dry, then after wiping down liberally with acetone, set a lighted match to it. A flame will dart across the specimen. Have your fireman´s attire on (flame-proof suit etc.) while doing this bit ! You may repeat the process a couple of times, until you are satisfied that no resin is sighted on the surface. Careful with acetone rags ....fire-bombs for sure.


If the Ipê is not bone dry and after proceeding as outlined above, take a 1-inch dia propane torch to it and run it up and down the piece, till you see the resins evaporating off. Don´t overdo this, as you will otherwise distort the wood.

[Man Overboard]

On torching ....

If the Ipê is perfectly dry, then after wiping down liberally with acetone, set a lighted match to it. A flame will dart across the specimen. Have your fireman´s attire on (flame-proof suit etc.) while doing this bit ! You may repeat the process a couple of times, until you are satisfied that no resin is sighted on the surface. Careful with acetone rags ....fire-bombs for sure.

Ha, Ha, Now this is the kind of information you just can't get from a book.

I had thought if I were to use Ipe on deck, I would use it as a veneer 10mm or so. That would keep the weight down, but you would still have the advantages of Ipe, along with its superior wear resistance. The disadvantage to this method is the entire deck has to be glued down. it has been done with other woods like teak.The Gougeon Brothers have a system for installing teak veneer.

Has any one tryed this product?

http://www.maritimewoodproducts.com/chemicals.html

I have already asked some of these questions in the following thread, and there is a comment on Ipe there also:

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthr...atives+to+teak

[Carioca]

Products similar to those that you mention above are available here and provided you follow the instructions, all should be well.

Brand names that are old hat to the marine business (Sikaflex, 3M etc) may have the advantage of accumulated know-how over the years, plus some of the vices and prejudices too !

After reading your last mesage on the mentioned thread, I gather you have the issue pretty well summed up.

To lay it on as a veneeer (10mm) as you suggest should be no problem at all, excepting that the width should be no more than 150 mm. Thin slivers of wider Ipê tend to crack as you rip on the circular saw....

I have glued it down - and done edge-to-edge splicing, tonge and groove style - with Sikaflex-type polyurethane, less the acetone and torch, for limited runs .

To be absolutely sure, I would not cut corners for something as serious as a whole deck, at least as concerns the bottom surface that will be glued down with Polyurethane

You may cut a rabbet on the veneer sides and have them butt against each other, the top edge of one veneer resting over the bottom of the adjoining one, kind of locking into each other, with a 10mm gap for the black-polyurethane to ooze out ........

I would additionally screw the venners down into the ply deck beneath for good measure.

[Man Overboard]

Can you comment on how hot an Ipe deck will get down in the tropics, as apposed to a teak deck. It seems that the wood is fairly dark; I am not sure of the color or shade after it has weathered as I have never seen it weathered.
In your opinion, which would be the best glue for a veneer application?

[Carioca]

I will consult with a boatwright who has extensive experience building and restoring wooden boats and get back to you mid-week.

There are a couple of "Saveiros" moored by the dock at my Club with "Ipê" decks that have weathered naturally - no varnish or any top coating applied. As far as I can recall, darker than silvery-Teak, but not what I would call dark at all.

But a varnished Ipê piece out in the open does darken considerably.

For the Teak-look, there is a light, Brazilian wood species -"Freijó" - that weathers just like teak. Indistinguishable, from afar. "Freijó" is soft, exhibits seasonal movement, soaks up water and swells - but is rot proof.

The Gloucester boat I mentioned - Ipê everywhere - has a "Freijó" deck. You may only wear legitimate deck shoes, or barefoot - or running shoes - on deck.

Plan to send you a pic of a weathered Ipê deck.

[fishweed]

Carioca,

How does Ipe bend? the rub rails on the boat I am working on have a big radius at the bow, should cut thin strips and laminate them, or groove the underside of the wood so I can make the bend?

[Carioca]

Fishweed,

Being a hard wood, it is not the simplest thing to bend it.

However, I managed to replace a semi-circular section of cedar on my 35 footer motor-boat´s chine - with Ipê - from bow to stern. Without needing to make some cross-cuts on the rear-side to interrupt the grain lines. Using liberal quantities of elbow grease, with the farther end coaxed into positionwith clamps, little by little, over 3-4 days.
A large radius rub-rail may not need the groove on the underside to install. Worst case, contour cut it and then scarve (splice) the pieces together.