Titebond III testing

[rasorinc]

AK I have used the system 3 tubes also - it is sold by Glen-L but a 68' boat would use how many tubes??? It does make it easy and is compatable with Poxy Grip.

[ancient kayaker]

My boats are a shade smaller! It's a pity S3 doesn't have a cartridge refill system. The replaceable mixer tips are only a couple of dollars but even those can be tossed into the freezer for reuse.

For my canoes, most of the joints are made with Titebond III while the planks are flat, to glue the inwales and chine logs to the sheers and bottom; becaue those joints are flat they fit perfectly and the titebond really works well under those conditions. Even if water does manage to get through the paint or varnish and touch the joint it can only moisten the edge of the glue layer.

Epoxy is only used for the bilge planks, as those joints are the only ones that are exposed to the water. I usually get a pretty good fit on those joints, too. As a result one cartridge does two or three boats even though those joints are long.

The detail work such as outwales, decks and such is also completed using Titebond unless a joint presents a special challenge and is too difficult to make with a perfect fit. I find a few minutes geting a good joint is paid back by the hours I would otherwise spend waiting for epoxy to set.

Of course, there's only 30 hours or so building time per canoe (they take longer to varnish/paint than they do to build) so epoxy set times can be a significant contribution to time from concept to launch; for a larger boat that might not be so important.

I am currently adapting my canoe construction method to a small sailboat. So far I have only identified two joints that will need epoxy, but that might increase as I get more into it. Most of my time on boats is spent in the design and planning stages to make the actual construction as easy and trouble-free as possible. I am sure I spend as much time as anyone else on any particular boat, but my satisfaction comes from having the job go smoothly rather than spending my hours nibbling away at the wood. Just the way I work.

Boston's work (post #2) leaves me amazed. I have a retired cabinet maker buddy who can do that sort of thing; however, he has trouble locating the joints on my boats - so do I for that matter. There are many paths to a good end result.

[rasorinc]

In building a 60' + boat there is a question of insurance to be dealt with. Not using (modern) materials such as epoxy and bolts might just present a problem as a survey will be required to insure and lack of these materials and methods
could make the boat uninsurable or at the very least very expensive.
In Oregon the state does not license builders but the Coast Guard does the inspections and issues the appropriate certifications. I moved here 18 months ago and have had meetings with the Coast Guard re: being a professional boat builder. I do not anticipate any problems and their certifications means standard insurance costs.
Others on this forum I am sure know more about this and I hope they chime in. It could become a real problem to Bos and I would not want that.
Even steam power and wood fires could hinder his goals. Best, Stan

[Boston]

point well taken
my plan is to hire someone more experienced with modern rules and building to go over my prints
not saying Ill take all there advice but Ill sure listen to it
Ill also get an agent to take a look and give me the scoop on insurance
Lloyds can eat my shorts if they dont like my engine

having specialized in building oddball structures Ive got somewhat of a handle on that
I built a triple pyramid house for some guy down in Manitou Springs just opposite the Indian ruins up on the top of the hill there with the copper and glass roof on it. If anyone knows the area.
it also has no metal fasteners in it and its superstructure is made entirely of wood, least it was until a freak tornado came along and trashed everything but the beam work I did and with all wood joints as well held fine, it was everything else that disappeared to Oz The guy sold it and the new guy rebuilt it with some metal fasteners but hired me to do all the glass again. He got a different contractor that his insurance foisted on him to do the rebuild and they did a terrible job. My all wood joinery was completely against code but the inspector was so impressed he passed me anyway.
Same thing with that conservatory I posted on a thread somewhere in this thing. It was not even close to code built out of Sitka spruce as originally spec designated but I switched it to White Oak and it passed no problem

point is that if you do a nice job of it
the inspectors will learn to respect you and give you tons of slack
if you do a conventional job
you can be a butcher, follow the code to the letter and still get past
but the inspectors will be leary of every little thing

now these boat inspectors might be a pain in the ass
but at one time there were steam engines running ships
and all of em had boilers
I even suspect there is a provision for Treenails somewhere and its just a mater of digging it up

Im all about doing my homework on this thing before I even cut the first chunk of wood.
Ill definitely take the advisement to be careful of the land sharks

thanks for the tip
B

[Jimbo1490]

if you do a conventional job
you can be a butcher, follow the code to the letter and still get past
but the inspectors will be leary of every little thing

This has been the standard M.O. for most of the big US home building companies since the end of WWII.

Jimbo

[Boston]

ok heard rumors that shellac is used as a bedding compound, which was news to me, we always used pine tar but hey, Im old and shellac is expensive ok. I did what I was told and liked it, or else.
so now Im waiting to hear from the chellac people about what substance they recommend for me to test. Im going to treat it like I did the PL and see what happens. Soak it boil it, then strength test, I think while Im at it Ill try some Man Oh War varnish and see how well it sticks things together

the suggestion was made to bed diagonal planking in shellac and forget the epoxy, its half the money and far less messy. Besides I get to work with alcohol that way.

cheers
B

[longfellow]

Hello again Boston,
I am glad to see that this thread has enjoyed a healthy life. Hopefully some folks have benefitted from it some.
I use shellac as a 'temporary preservative only, but as such and having used it so for a while now, I wouldn't build without it. I lived with the unceasing checking of air dried lumber throoughout the build process, struggled to keep it under control with painted timber ends and repairs using epoxy, that once I saw how effective shellac is, there is never a can with a jar of denatured alcohol far away.
I coat any major structural member that I know will be sitting around my shop, once the rough shape is gotten out of the rough-sawn beams that I buy, while I am fitting, spiling... If it is going to be some time before I can get a more permanent coating of finish (varnish, paint..) on that timber, it gets a coat. And even if it is coated, if I remove the coat as I am fitting it but am not yet done and I am going to close up the shop, especially if I know that a fairly drastic change in weather (humidity really) is comming, it gets another coat before I close up shop. It is cheap insurance for a piece of timber that has hours of labor invested, is a great sealer and foundation for the final finishes that I typically use, and not too expensive.
Hey, I never asked through the entire "Titebond" thread what you're building. Do you mind sharing? Just curious.
Ed

[Boston]

deciding exactly what to build has been an organic process

this is what Im planning out and so far looks to be my most likely candidate for a retirement home



its basically this one stretched with a railing shrowd hiding the aft cabin house roof and windows a slightly taller pilot house and a canopy



I have lines for this hull



I like the lines I found and love the layout of the 57 flat top with the smaller 46 Widgeon being a good look at the after cabin arraignment.

Ill be retiring back to the water and I can feel the boat building bug catching up with me fast. I want to build an old elco flat top 57 I found lines for. pellet fueled steam engines, Im going with two reversible 50 to 125 hp 435 ft/lb each single expansion single stage steam engines max rpm of 1500+. a shrouded 22x18 prop spinning between 700 and 1000 rpm. no transmission necessary. and at cruising speed I need only one engine.

Ive done some number crunching to determine what works for power and the group has been helping out with some of the science Im not familiar
with

calculated for the 125hp steam engine spinning at 900 rpm and 70 hp, the second set of numbers in { } is for the same engine at max potential
engine torque = 408 ft/lb { 438 }
shaft hp at prop = 68 ( no gear box ) { 121 }
prop rpm = 900 { 1500 }
prop torque = 396 ft/lb { 425 }
displacement = 25 tons
wl =57'
speed in knots = 9
speed length ratio = 1.192
shaft hp available = 68 { 121 }
pounds pr shaft hp available = 736 { 412 }
hp required at prop = 70
lb pr shaft hp required = 716
80% of max prop shaft rpm =720 { 1200 }
theoretical required prop pitch = 15.2 { 9.12 }
1) estimates slip of un-shrouded prop = 40.01%
2) estimated slip of shrouded prop = 17%
1) required un-shrouded prop pitch at 9 knots = 21" at 25" diameter rpm = 720 { 15" at 22" diameter rpm = 1200}
2) required shrouded prop pitch at 9 knots = 18" at 22" diameter rpm = 720 { 12" at 22" diameter rpm = 1200 }

or as Rick determined



with the most efficient hull speed being about 9 knots



with vawt generators hidden beneath the canopy to augment the electrical system and a few solar cells on the top

Ive not built anything in terms of a boat since I was a kid, although Ive kept my skills alive building other things. What I need is alternatives to chemical intensive materials as I want this thing to be as eco friendly as reasonably possible

This was my last major build a few years ago, myself and the two guys working for me built it from the foundation hole up in about a year for a local Jeweler



back when I was out on the cape my grand Dad had us help him fix up local boats for mostly the lobster guys. I learned a lot mostly the hard way and was every year back for more till I was about 17 then we moved way inland and Ive missed it ever since. I started out on the water and Ive every intention of ending up there. what I dont remember much of is glue. and I hate slathering chemicals all over everything and calling it good.

best
hope you like my next project piece
B

Im narrowing down my materials to black locust for the keel and bwl stringers, white oak for everything else in the skeleton, cherry raised panel for the deck houses with maple floors and decks, ceder cabin tops, poplar diagonal planking shellaced every layer with a black locust outer layer, and 4x1/4 tempered lamy windows all with storm shutters. The aft master cabin will have a wet bar, entertainment cabinet, wood stove, built in matching, wardrobes and two sets of stairs flared with turned railings one going up to the aft deck and one going forward up to the pilot house, and a decent set of book shelves.

the glues are as of yet not determined and the bottom coat will be copper bottom over something
probably epoxy

bilge keels are a distinct possibility to help in the motion at sea

one element I have yet to discus with the group is that I have an idea for a structural member integral to the aft cabin walls. it would be a girder like structure following the walls down to the framing of the hull going for and aft throughout the vessel. would make for a really stiff boat and seriously add strength for a small weight gain.
the estimated tonnage of the original was 21 and Im going minimalistic on the finish wall treatments thus enabling me to put that weight into the frame and its associated components. Ive calculated the amount of fuel I would need to get across the Atlantic to England at 6 tons of pellets and so this is the primary cargo capacity requirement

Ive begun recalculating for the new design considerations it order to begin putting a preliminary design on paper

ply strips are week perpendicular to the surface grain so I was going to avoid using it in the sheathing of the hull, (at least 5 ply is, 9 is the bomb but I wont be finding it in 1/2"). Black Locust is great for structural members of the frame exactly as you previously stated but heavy, might add to much weight but would sure be worth using. Please send that link again as I must have missed it or misplaced it. Ply is also heavy and typically that stuff uses Resourcenol which out gasses formaldehyde and has been known to cause serious respiratory complications.
Ive given serious consideration to increasing the spacing of the framing to a typical 16oc spec just to keep my brain on straight
thats another reason Im after the stats on cold molding
which I guess I got at +25% ( wood for wood ? )
so if I consider same wood and same thickness I could go 25% greater spacing on the frames

poplar is 25% heavier than red ceder and about 30% stronger depends on how you want to measure it with a modulus of elasticity of 1,120 lb/sq (ceder) vs 1,500 (yellow poplar) at 12% moisture content being about 34% stronger and an impact bending limit of 8,600 lb/sq (ceder) vs 13,500 lb/sq (poplar) or 57% stronger at the same 12% moisture content

means poplar would allow me at the same thickness to gain ~30% spacing for a ttl of ~25% + ~30% or ~55% of 9" spacing is ~14" spacing
and then I increased the size of the frames on average from 1 5/8 x 1 5/8 to 1 7/8 x 2 1/2 or ~ nearly 78%
which gives me the 16" spacing for the frames with a significant gain in strength throughout the structure

and I have yet to calculate the weight gain but it only needs to be bellow the typical take up of red ceder and Im good to go

hmmmm
57 x 12 = 684 / 16 = 43 ribs
as apposed to 684 / 9 = 76 ribs
or 77% fewer ribs at 78% greater mass pr rib
well that worked out

but the greater spacing kinda makes me want to thicken the hull from 1 1/4 to maybe 1 3/4 or about 40% using the same four layer system and thus the same amount of epoxy say an inner layer of 1/2 two layers of 3/8 diagonal and one more of 1/2 exactly as Ras suggested
although Im starting to warm up to the idea of a final layer of black locust, at least bellow the line, and since its so much stronger I could go thinner on that last layer, say whatever the weight difference dictates, maybe.

so the sheathing material (poplar) weighs in at 28% heavier pr cubic foot and I added 40% which works out for each square foot of planking to be 2.2 lb/sq ft for ceder at 1 1/4 and 3.9 lb/sq ft for poplar at 1.75 or 77% heavier

the boat is 57' long and an avarage rib length of 22' ( measuring strong just for the sake of argument ) and I get 1,254 sq ft of surface area
cedar would weigh in at 2,758.8 lbs
poplar would weigh in at 4,890.6 lbs

and that's within the 1 1/2 tons I roughly calculated for take up in an old school ceder hull
means the boat floats about were it should and yet is far stronger than it was

that was back when I was thinking of epoxy and the cold molding method but it was pointed out that this method is not all its cracked up to be
a subsequent suggestion of using 9lb shellac between all layers is what Is now on the top of my list of possibilities
as you can see
this has been a very organic process

Ive also calculated for the ttl materials list and I came out well under the 21 ton displacement even though I beefed up some structural components. leaves room for little things like food and water

[PAR]

Hull speed for the Elco 57 was 10.1 knots. You will not go much faster then this without a few thousand HP on tap.

One of your requirements was an ocean passage making cruiser. You do realize, neither the 45 nor the 57 are very well suited to open water work, for many reasons.

[Boston]

10.19
dont shortchange me man

Im going through the preliminaries one aspect at a time and altering things as needed
comes back to that part where at some point i need a naval engineer
the underbody needs some reconfiguring in order to be most efficient and Ive got no clue as to what direction that configuration might take, as it is there are obvious issues with taking that thing out across the water, a few being say the windows or the light scantlings or the high center of gravity. All of which I have begun to address. It may certainly be that in the end I am unable to make an open water cruiser out of it, but I wont know till I try.

What Iv noticed in being a contractor is that part of the job is saving the customer form themselves. People want me to build the dumbest stuff sometimes, or in a way that is least efficient or some combination thereof. I am pretty determined not to be one of those, that said there is an appeal to that old elco that is worth overcoming a few problems, if its reasonable to do so. If its not reasonable to do so, Im sure that conclusion will make itself evident eventually

There is at least one naval engineer I know who has already redesigned the old elco underbody into what he claims is an extremely efficient hull form, he sent me his designs and asked that I not post them or discuss what he has done in order to achieve the significant improvement in performance, I am bound to honer his request. Thing is he included several design elements I dont really care for and Im still looking at options in terms of how to alter the hull to achieve a better performance.

the center of gravity issue might be one to address sooner than later although that will be dependent on what underbody I go with and so Ive avoided it for now

ideas are always appreciated

cheers
B

there are numerous examples of ocean going vessels who's hull forms could be modified to fit under the old elco



stick the elco deck plan onto it
change the sheer line add a barrel to the stern and alter the canoe style transom and deal with the balance issues that presents
Im ok with chine as long as its not intended to go full planing as that's waistfull of fuel

another possibility Ive been reading up on all day is bilge keels

[Boston]

bilge keels look like they will definitely kill some roll issues
I posted this on another thread but its worth posting here as well since our last was concerning simple alterations to a design that would make it more sea worthy
if sized correctly they do not need to add dramatically to wetted surface area as the central keel area can be significantly reduced
B

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/RHY_RON/ROLLING_OF.html


this guys got some serious idea going on his hull form
He is at Mcgowan Marine Design
and he is working with the same basic design Im after
He is also however really funny about linking to his site
so if you want to check it out its a semi displacement tunnel hull
at
mcgowanmarinedesign.com

[Boston]

back to titebond testing

Ive made some arched beams using white oak and titebond for a non marine related job Im working on

these beams are only six feet long 2" x 1 1/2"
I have measured the highth of the arch and will be allowing each to sit for a while before final assembly
I know titebond can "creep"
so I thought Ild measure any "creeping" I can find along with the initial spring of the beam as it comes out of the mold
Ill post details as I get em

[ancient kayaker]

I've heard mention of Titebond III creeping from several sources but haven't heard of any actual cases, and I haven't noticed it happen on my work either, so it will be interesting to hear of your results. However, I mostly use softwoods where the wood strength is probably insufficient to bring about creep.

[Boston]

each piece was molded out of 6, 1/4 x 2" cold bent white oak for a ttl thickness of 1 1/2
each was allowed a full 24 hours in the molds
clamp pressure was sufficient to remove all "dead" spaces from between the leaves
I did not pay verry good attention to the rough length of each set of leaves so the length is not as relevant as the highth of the arch as measured off the floor
each arched beam was molded at 81 3/4 long as measured straight across from end to end
and also molded to 17 3/8 from the base ( floor ) to the highest point of the arch
coming out of the molds each of the two pieces I have completed sprung to
1st piece 81 1/8 and 16 3/4
2nd piece 82 1/4 and 16 3/4 strong

the spring I was expecting
its any additional motion Im after measuring

I am molding up the third piece now

[IMG][/IMG]

[hoytedow]

Nice work.