Titebond III testing

[ancient kayaker]

Hey Boston, some good info there. A lot of traditional boat-building wood choices are based on local availability of old-growth timber and compatibility with traditional methods of building. Modern conditions combined with glue-intensive construction methods may need a rethink. Cross-grain strength and peeling resistance is more important than ability to hold fasteners, and straight grain is more important than ever with lightweight scantling. Strangely good poplar is more expensive here than cedar. Go figure.

Sorry about the fat people at the burlesque show; perhaps you should have looked at the stage?

[pebbletripper]

Just a few of my own observations here in the uk .Don't ever try using alyphatic in the real cold it turns into what I would describe as glueing with flour and water ! All the pu 's ive used when exposed to sunlight eventually turn black and desintegrate although great for resisting sharp shock loads. Resorcinol planks I glued edge to edge for a skiff project provided some spare for a bird table roof some 6 years ago . No finish applied and still intact with no deterioration. Good with oily woods .Don't use wood filler powder as you dont know what wood was used better to use coconut shell filler powder - have you ever seen a rotten coconut? Also one magic use of coconut shell filler powder is that it is an electrolite and can make epoxy useable with radio frequency curing - brilliant in colder climes and stops resorcinol destroying itself with lightning running through the joint. Having said all that providing that TB3 isn't permanently exposed to water it is more forgiving than resocinol which is very brital if not in a tight joint. Hope thats of interest regards all.

[Boston]

they were on stage that was the problem
my theory is that if your pear shaped
cover that **** up

um I can give you the info on a mill ( I haven't used em before ) that has clear yellow poplar cheaper than #1 ceder if you want it although Im not so sure about the durability of yellow ( tulip ) poplar. Seems like it would not be as good as the ceder

oh and ya this business of slathering inferior materials in glue and calling it modern just makes my skin crawl
ok fiberglass is highly profitable for manufactures due both the need for a lower skill set and its compatibility with mas production methods. Both dam handy in a world were the average grade completed is dropping like a rock.
but for joy of craftsmanship nothing beats an old school build, although some of those steal constructions look dam intense, Ild love; once I get back on the water, to get involved with one of those.

that said Mas's build looks like a lot of fun and
would be a challenge to do it right so go Mas
cant wait to see it coming along

best
B

[PAR]

Live oak steams better, doesn't check, split or rot as easily as white oak. I'm not sure white kind of lengths you need, but I have a 24" diameter by 35' and an 18" by 22' log in my side yard now. Clear, straight grained live oak.

Yellow poplar used to be a common planking material, but it's getting rare and the stuff they're calling yellow poplar now is second growth or plantation, which is much less rot resistant and weaker.

I know you like to think that traditional methods with more rot resistant species may be a better way to go Boston. This can be the case for land based structures, but the marine environment is considerably different. The current generation of boat owners just don't understand the process of keeping traditionally built wooden structures, let alone the routine to insure they have a long life. Most folks just wait until a problem causes another problem which eventually becomes big enough to require repairs. This wasn't the case a few generations ago, where routine maintenance was commonly preformed and planking could last 50 years without epoxy, again. Enter the plastics.

Without these protocols in place, a modern owner of a traditional wooden structure (marine of course) will find his planking shot at 15 years, frames beginning to crack from tension in 20 and wholesale refurbishing necessary in just a few decades.

In light of these realities, maintenance reduction through the use of materials and methods has stepped up. Enter the plastics. The urethanes started this off in the early 50's and it's snow balled ever since with mostly good results. A classic example would be traditional lapstrake hulls, clenched or riveted together. It wasn't long before these hulls needed to "take up", which was an accepted aspect of ownership. As early as the late 1950's polyurethanes and polysulfide were used in the lap seams and suddenly these boats could remain leak free for a generation.

Development has progressed at a steady rate since and for the most part have dramatically improved and increased the viability of wooden boats. Frankly, if it wasn't for epoxy, the wooden boat revival seen at the end of the 80's and all through the 90's to present day, wouldn't have occurred.

As a result, wooden boats now are lighter, by a considerable amount. Unheard of amounts, compared to traditional build methods. Rot resistance, abrasion resistance and especially water proofness have been greatly enhanced.

I have an 8 ton trawler 40' on deck. When I dragged it ashore for a replanking a few years ago, I lost a ton in moisture gain, when it dried out. This is 12.5% of the weight of the boat, just freeloading. Think of the additional fuel or supplies I could carry, without any drag penalty if I could control the moisture gain. Enter plastics. The boat has a composite bottom with an encapsulated out layer of 3/8" cedar, over two diagonal layers of 3/8" plywood with an inner layer of more 3/8" cedar. It looks exactly the same as the old carvel planking, except it's stable, doesn't absorb moisture by the ton and can't spring open a butt block like it use to do. This planking will out live me, without leaking or rotting.

These plastics have caused several new building methods to revive the home boat building market. This was a vibrant community, particularly after WWII, but pretty much died off in the late 60's and early 70's. Now a huge resurgence has opened up and boats are getting built everywhere.

[Jimbo1490]

PAR

Your last post brought to mind the weeks right after the 2004 storms. Here's what I was doing in October '04:



That's a 90cc saw with a 24" bar. For the he bigger wood I installed a 30" bar. Too much work, but it seemed such a waste to just burn all that beautiful wood in a series of big bonfires, so I tried my hand at milling planks; BIG ones.

Jimbo

[Boston]

live oak is great stuff no doubt its just that when we did used to use it, we were cutting in rather than steaming it much
stuff is generally got so many twists and turns in it its great for cutting oddball pieces out of. Your logs are worth a fortune as Im sure you know. It seems I got a great handle on Black locust and I can get it actually cheaper than either white oak or live (haven't checked the price of live yet but this build Im thinkin of just doesn't have that many crazy tight turns to it) and live has always been the most expensive oak
I always thought the reason live oak steamed better was cause the grain was kinda going in the direction of a bend anyway, we also used to chainsaw bits and pieces from the log and then go flatten em out some in the shop.

If I go with the diagonal planking and Im leaning strongly in that direction then Ill likely also slather glue on at least two of those layers. Ill just be cringing while I do it hoping Im not making some irreparable mistake. I dont work with glues much and for whatever reasons just hate depending on chemicals rather than craftsmanship.

I haven't built a boat in way to long and Im sure all you guys have a better handle on whats changed IE why Im here

one thing we are going to agree on wholeheartedly though is that people just dont know how to take care of stuff any more and traditional build is dam heavier than a modern say cold mold or laminated structure. This basic lack of knowledge of how to take care of wood is at least somewhat responsible for the advent of plastics in boating. you can be a nitwit and your boat might still last thirty years or so and thats about as long as its going to last until it starts to delaminate or whatever. A wood build has potential to last hundreds of years and since I love working with wood its the way for me to go, that and given that I will have all the time in the world to start carving the hammer beams ( not generally a nautical term ) this thing just might end up more art than boat. By which I hope to entice someone to keep her in good order for some time after my departure.

in the end I have no choice but to grant you all of your previous
I just have not developed any comfort level yet with some of the newer methods that depend so heavily on chemicals
which you gotta admit are untried over the centuries like the old school methods are
when the epoxy industry turns to a 30 year old boat as a shining example of longevity
I get a little worried
if Im going to build that old 57 and retire on it I want it rock solid, positively buoyant and not dependent on some chemical company to stick together
I also want it dry inside
so the idea of diagonal planking the hull is acceptable as all fastenings and wood can be exactly as they would normally be, its just that I've the option to encapsulate each piece as I go
lots slower but lots stiffer in the end.
your going to end up convincing me its just that I would prefer you were wrong

ya Im sure that sounded stupid
but your logic is sound
I just hate the modern age
and most of all hate replacing craftsmanship for chemicals

I still havent gotten a straight answer about how long epoxy is supposed to last
someone somewhere has bound to have studied that

oh and nice call on the checking
WO checks like a mad man the instant it hits the kiln
you have to dry that stuff at half the speed you can dry just about anything else
Ill throw you some points on that one cause its clear you have actually worked with the stuff from start to finish
which is more than I could say for about 95% of the folks who talk about anything at all
B

[PAR]

Live oak has an interlocking grain, which is one of the reasons it's so tough. The grain can be quite straight, but it's inter connected fibers make it challenging to work, particularly by hand. Given the choice of your two species, I'll take live oak over either any time and pay the slight weight penalty.

Before plastics, we were using just as nasty of compounds on wood as preventives. I'm reminded of the green stuff we used years ago. It's nothing like what's available now, but the moment you opened a can, it was instantly understood you didn't want to wear, eat or bath in the stuff. Judging by what it did to local plants it was dripped on, as it was splashed about with brushes and low pressure sprayers, clearly you run the risk of three headed babies as your offspring.

You might change your mind about traditional boat building, if you get a chance to live with one for a while. The tar that was used to seal just about everything also got all over everything. Bathing in pine gum spirits was the only way to get it off you and also not very good for your either.

Epoxy does have a life span, though it's quite long if UV doesn't get at it. It'll out live the folks your estate wills it too, if cared for. No wooden boat can survive very long without scheduled replacements, which means the planking may outlive you, but your kids will likely have to replace some or all of it, as part of a maintenance schedule. Planking is actually considered a "consumable" element, just like an oil filter.

I understand you hesitations on goo, but once you get some experience with it, you'll change your mind like I did, years ago.

Do some tests, like painting a board and partly immersing it for a year. Do the same with an encapsulated and painted board. Pick an especially easily rotted species and see the dramatic difference modern goo can make. When you see one with substantial rot and it's embalmed neighbor in pristine condition in the same environment, it's pretty compelling.

[Boston]

the stuff I always will remember was the leaded paste we used to use all the time or the pitch we used on the oakum
that crap only came off as you say with pine solvent but at least it was basic pine tar.
I think the stuff you are referring to was the old petroleum based tar that my grand dad refused to let in the shop. I never worked with it but he would swear up a storm if anyone even mentioned it.
and that green **** was that anything like copper bottom paint cause that stuff kills everything including three headed babies
ever read the warning on the back of the can
youch

oh
and ya I remember blades tend to follow the grain of live oak
course we were often cutting it with a band saw which is prone to following anyway, but still live oak or curly maple were terrible to try and cut straight. Tends to break blades, although Black Locust is supposed to be a pain in the ass to work with. As long as it routers ok Im happy cause Im going to be beveling all non bearing surfaces throughout the build. Its also got to steam well and not split on me when I start making Swiss cheese out of it with pins

thanks for the info Ill look into what live costs these days and how hard it is to get good straight pieces my theory is its harder to get and way more expensive also its properties are not listed in any of my reference guides so Im working blind until I actually look up its stats
B

ps
in 45 minutes of looking I found one guy who is got some for sale and its 5 times the cost of White Oak
any ideas

[PAR]

Move to the south. I have several acres of the stuff, mixed with southern yellow, water oak (one of the reds), sycamore, etc. all in very densely packed stands, which is just what you want for tall, straight stock. You're in fir country.

[Boston]

ah I can order from anywhere in the country and have it shipped
I ship lumber all the time
or I used to when I had work
thing is you never quite know what your getting till you get a sample and check it
even then your pretty much at the mercy of your supplier

you never know though I might just get smart and move to were the timber is rather than have the timber shipped here
no reason I couldnt build on the banks of the Mississippi in some podunk town thats cheep cheep cheep
(outside of flood zone )

[MichaelC]

For those of us already living with the results of epoxy poisoning, this is a great thread. [I had on the safety equipment, ripped a glove where I had an open cut, and a few days later developed the bad rash and it went from there. Now I cannot even be in the presence of the sanding without breaking out ... dang it.] Both Culler and Buehler suggest possibly using pin e tar or Atco roofing tar to laminate keel members with bolts. Anyone have experience there? I had thought to use TB3, but this thread is making me rethink that. I am beginning construction of a Buehler 30' Emily. I can't find appropriate timber, so will laminate keel and deadwood from 2 X stock, and need to put something in between them - glue or not, for I would bolt the hell out of it even with epoxy.

[Jimbo1490]

There are some really good 2 part polyurethane adhesives. They have their own sensitizing issues, but that's really a separate issue from epoxy sensitization; you could be sensitized to epoxy but not 2 part poly. Contact a 3M adhesives rep as they are familiar with the wide range of 3m adhesive offerings.

Jimbo

[Boston]

have you considered glue laminated beams
they are a standard construction item and are assembled using Resourcinol glue or at least they are at Western Millwork were I get mine

Ive used pine tar for just about everything when I was a kid working in my grand fathers shop
its primitive but it works and was a standard base component of that lead sludge that we used to slather on wood pins that would be exposed to the weather before painting them

not sure how good a glue it is but we also used to use it in conjunction with dowels and you'd be lucky if you could drill it out after you stuck it with pine tar let alone have it fall out

best
B

[MichaelC]

Thanks Jimbo and Boston for your replies. I will definitely check out the 3M 2 part adhesives. I have thought about using glue lams for the deadwood. I do not know how much they would cost me in the sizes I need. Whether I use poly glues or pine tar, I will be bolting heavily anyway. Needless to say, it is an exciting time. I appreciate the in put.

[rasorinc]

MichaelC call any lumber yard in your area for a quote on GluLams. Unless your going huge- price should be $6.00 to $7.00 lineal foot. I'm assuming you do not want a curve built in. Thats $$$$