Substitute for Yellow Fir

I had to learn it here, that you have several poplar species in the US !! All of them are crap except one, and I think it is the "Tulip" one.

I provided a link above, you can look it up there.
I can not, I am in bed with pneumonia since monday.

[Boston]

thats the stuff
its nice wood, straight grain, few knots, flexible but strong enough, light, doesnt soak up water as badly as ceder or split, splinter, twist and cup like Pine. Its one draw back is its only moderately rot resistive but at least thats comparable to the pines or Dougy and at a fraction of the cost

call a mill in Michigan somewhere, they have tons of the stuff in that state and someone somewhere is bound to be sitting on a mountain of cut timber just dying to sell for dirt cheap right about now

Southern Appalachia will also have some good mills for Tulip wood but the stuff I got last was from Michigan some where and had a nice tight ring pattern to it

build windows out of the stuff a few years ago

white oak I can connect you with for about $1 to $2 a foot
and they are very generous with the quantities
I could even probably dig up that guy I bought the Poplar from if your considering it
ceder I dont have a very good handle on but then again I dont buy that much of it anymore or at least haven't in a while
I am torn between ceder and poplar for my own build so in order to do a decent cost analysis of the decision Ill need to eventually find a decent mill supplying ceder, if anyone is reading along and knows of a good supplier feel free to throw me a bone.
Pine I seldom build anything out of but we do have some good mills in this area that cut the stuff.

[dskira]

Originally Posted by apex1

I had to learn it here, that you have several poplar species in the US !! All of them are crap except one, and I think it is the "Tulip" one.

I provided a link above, you can look it up there.
I can not, I am in bed with pneumonia since monday.

Wood is not important health is.
Get warm Richard and take antibiotics.
Get well soon.
Daniel

[dskira]

Originally Posted by Boston

thats the stuff
its nice wood, straight grain, few knots, flexible but strong enough, light, doesnt soak up water as badly as ceder or split, splinter, twist and cup like Pine. Its one draw back is its only moderately rot resistive but at least thats comparable to the pines or Dougy and at a fraction of the cost

call a mill in Michigan somewhere, they have tons of the stuff in that state and someone somewhere is bound to be sitting on a mountain of cut timber just dying to sell for dirt cheap right about now

Southern Appalachia will also have some good mills for Tulip wood but the stuff I got last was from Michigan some where and had a nice tight ring pattern to it

build windows out of the stuff a few years ago

white oak I can connect you with for about $1 to $2 a foot
and they are very generous with the quantities
I could even probably dig up that guy I bought the Poplar from if your considering it
ceder I dont have a very good handle on but then again I dont buy that much of it anymore or at least haven't in a while
I am torn between ceder and poplar for my own build so in order to do a decent cost analysis of the decision Ill need to eventually find a decent mill supplying ceder, if anyone is reading along and knows of a good supplier feel free to throw me a bone.
Pine I seldom build anything out of but we do have some good mills in this area that cut the stuff.

Boston: Viking Lumber 207-338-3480
They have their own mill beside being a lumber yard and hardware.
They custom mill.
Shipping I don't know. But ask thei are curteous and will help you.
Daniel

[Boston]

for ceder
way to go
Ill call em right now
thanks
B


darn
closed

[rasorinc]

here is the info on long leaf yellow pine, PINE, LONGLEAF YELLOW
(Southern pine) BOSTON, did you contact the guy in washington State I gave you re: Black locust???????Stan
41 lbs. per cubic foot, 3.42 lbs. per board foot
Grown in the Southern, Atlantic, and Gulf states, there are several varieties of Southern pine. However, the "longleaf" type is best for boat use. The wood is an orange to reddish brown in color, but all species are similar and difficult to differentiate. The dense heartwood is considered almost as decay resistant as white oak. The wood is strong, straight grained, and hard, however this can vary. The sapwood can be easily treated to improve its decay resistance. Often substituted for white oak.

[Boston]

not sure I did
better give me that one again as well
thanks
B

[rusty377]

perhaps I should mention... this is a skin on frame 14' canoe of basic construction. I live on an estuary so it has brackish water but the boat will be stored indoors and used several times a week. The boat is constructed of stringers 1/2" x 1/2" and ribs of 3/16"x 1 1/2" (the ribs require steam bending) and some plywood for the stems all covered with ballistic nylon and polyurethane paint. My concern has been steam bendable wood and possibly the weight of the wood as it should not weigh more than 30 lbs. or so of course I don't want it to rot away either :0). No epoxy is used- and very little glue.

[PAR]

Use live oak for the steam bent frames, not white. Live oak is common in your area. Live oak is heavy, but it's also very strong so it's dimensions can be reduced. Ash is an option, though it's rot resistance is poor, it'll bend nicely as will alder. If the boat will be kept in doors, then many of the rot issues can be moot, assuming it's kept dry and clean.

Now to dispel myths, Poplar available currently is crap, unless you can get some yellow, which is fairly rare now. Ponderosa pine is useless in a boat, it'll rot at the mere mentioning of moisture. Red oaks are only useful if they will be submerged in salt or brackish water continuously. It'll rot other wise, it's weak for it's weight and splits readily. Real longleaf yellow pine is very hard to find, but good grades of pine should be available in your area. Look for tight growth ring patterns in the pine.

Again, the local mills will be the places you'll find good stuff. They know their stock and what they can get. They also know how to cut stock, but you have to ask.

If it was me, I'd use Douglas fir or one of the lighter pines for the stringers and live oak for the ribs. I'd consider smaller rib dimensions, because of the weight and strength of the oak, maybe 3/16" x 1" on a very slightly closer spacing (just guessing, but say 12" reduced to 11" or 10")

[skinboatman]

Rusty, fancy meeting you in a place like this!.I wasn't aware that I was leaving you with questions about what lumber to use to build the Big Lassie.I thought down in the Carolinas it was easy to get lumber, especially yellow pine, which apparently works very well for my boats, and which I've heard (but can't swear to) is not really pine at all, but cypress. Sorta like the yellow cedar I use over here, which is not really cedar, but cypress also... Anyhow, to add another thing into the pot: When I can't find long enough lengths, I scarph them: in my case that means a 1:12 angle or so, i.e a 12inch length of cut for a 1 inch thickness of wood, which I do on the tablesaw with an angle cutting box which runs in the miter guide slot. Next, of course, I glue and peg the joint with regular type 2 glue, and usually bamboo chopsticks or skewers for dowels (I sometimes have to dimension the chopsticks by running them through a hole drilled in a piece of steel or aluminium), and then, to be sure to be sure, I lash the two pieces together with the same artificial sinew I use to build the rest of the boat. Even without the glue, this makes a much stronger joint than just the wood itself. The disadvantage is that you can notice the lashing through the skin. The other advantage is that yousee the joints inside the boat , where the lashing looks pretty cool... And again, don't forget, your boat is not going to be in the water all the time, either, and is going to have plenty of time to dry out between paddles, so a coat or three of some good varnish, or even oil, before you skin the boat, will help to preserve it for a long time...
Also,again, experience tells me this is only the first boat you're going to build like this, and the next one will be a little different, and the one after that, too, thanks to the ease of construction, so, like I said, for the first one, use something decent,i.e. straight, coat it well, don't give yourself a headache, and have FUN with the project. Remember I am always at the end of the phone if you need any input. Cheers, Brian, www.dreamcatcherboats.com.
BTW, did you get the plans for the Rushton rowboat I sent you? I never know with this computer..

[rusty377]

Hi Brian!

Yes I did get the Rushton plans-thanks! I always try to get lots of choice before embarking on a project- so ask lots of questions of lots of people :0) I do have question on Rushton plans - are the mold frames that are upside down on the plans stations 2 and 4? There is also no bill of materials- but I would assume same lumber as Big lassie - ribs 3/16x1 1/2? Is the keelson 3/4" wide on bottom or 7/8? What are the dashed lines in the forms for- I know they could be cutout but do they have another purpose? How many total stations are there in the mold- 12? How long should the stem be for the Rushton -not sure of orientation on plans - is stemtop in the up direction?

This is my first boat build without lots of plywood and epoxy! It should be fun and increase my sewing skills instead of just sail repair :0)


I plan to visit the lumberyard this coming week and see what they have - it's mainly construction grade. I will look for live oak, douglas fir, and cypress- to see what they are.

Cheers,
Rusty

[skinboatman]

I love these questions! It's always easy to miss stuff when you live in a cave... The upside down ones are 4, 2 , and 6. There are eleven molds, number 6 (the center mold), being the only solo. I forgot about the scantlings, so make them the same general size as for the Big Lassie, adjusting a little for length if you have to. A word about scantlings. The sizes you have there are pretty well the minimum, except for the ribs at 3/16". I find 1/4" too hard to deal with. And then the stringers et al are pretty well optimum, I think, but I have come to size them according to the size of lumber that I get, so they are sometimes a bit bigger, because I use my lumber up to avoid waste: A slice sixteen feet long by 1/4" doesn't generally do me much good, and if I adjust my blade somewhat, I can leave it on the boat... Call me cheap, but also I don't have to sweep it up off the shop floor. As for the stem, the top is at the end of the long arm, and the size, again, depends on where the stringers end up landing on it, so there is some extra, there.I sometimes keep the extra for tying on a painter or something, and sometimes I trim it off flush with the deck, and cover it with something to make it look pretty. The part with the notch is where the keelson sits. And yes, I do put a full length keel on it, about 1/2" deep, for tracking and stability, as well as protection when beaching. On the Big Lassie, I don't, generally, but sometimes I do. Never on the Free Lassie,though, because you'd never be able to turn it. It's hard enough as it is to turn, what with the sharp entry and exit.. Oh, and by the way, my apologies for my appalling handwriting on the Rowboat plan. I was never taught to print in school.. ANd yes, the dashed lines are for the cutouts in the stations..Cheers, Brian

[rusty377]

Brian,

Sorry - I feel a little stupid - my printer printed the Rushton plans out in landscape mode and whacked half off - I didn't even notice- just reprinted and everything makes sense now :0) It was just a fluke it printed on a divide where it looked ok :0)

I am going to build the frame before I think about spending for covering, etc. Do you mind telling me what size of imitation sinew you are using? That should get me up to a stage where I can decide what to do about it.



Cheers,

Rusty

[mike amory]

Rusty- Contact local sawmills to search out who is cutting Atlantic white`cedar. This is good planking stock. I'm not familiar with the design, so I don't know the size of the boat your looking to build.Get your hands on some white oak for the stringers and steam bent ribs . Contact local wooden boat guys or portable bandsaw owners to steer you in the right direction.

Originally Posted by rusty377

I am starting my first true small boat from plans and need some assistance. I live in South Carolina where the wood selection for boat building is questionable - even though I live on the coast. I am building a Big Lassie from dreamweaverboats.com plans but there is no (Alaskan) yellow fir available here. Any suggestions for stringer and ribs (steam bent) from a substitute material that may be available in the southeast? Is pine a reasonable substitute for both? Is aspen a suitable wood? How about red oak for ribs? I have perused the local Lowes and find only "whitewood?",red oak,cyprus, and something marked "SYN" in a 2x10which I cannot tell what it is but price is only $16 for a 16 footer? It is a bit bewildering I must say. Is there perhaps a chart that shows substitution for woods from west coast to east coast (including bendability,etc?

Thanks,
Rusty

[Wayne Grabow]

I have used Douglas fir very successfully on several boats. I was surprised to find cypress locally and have recently been using it. It is reported to be somewhat rot resistant, of moderate weight, fairly strong, bends well, few knots,seems to cut and sand okay, and the price is right. I have enjoyed using it on the current boat and think I may start using it more.