solid as oak?

[poetprince]

i had posted this yesterday
but it seems to have disappeared
so if it shows up twice
please accept my apology

are there any wood experts out there
who could tell me if 'Canyon Live Oak'
(Quercus chrysolepis)
can be utilized in any way for boatbuilding?
it is extremely dense
doesn't grow all that straight
but in fact has some beautiful sweeping curves
it's branch formation
may also provide a good source for 'knees'

in the old days it was prized by pioneers
for wagon wheels and axles
as well as hammerheads (mallets) and wedges
used extensively for splitting redwood railroad ties.

although this is a query
for potential usages/markets
i can also answer a few questions if need be

~poetprince

[byankee]

none of the usual web resources I go to for wood characteristics info have anything useful to say about this species. You might try posting your question of the WoodenBoat Building/Construction forum at

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi

lots of very experienced wooden boat builiders there.......

It seems to me that the issue is decay resistance/durability rather than strength as all of the oaks are strong woods, right?

You might want to do a visual comparison between it and known samples of red and white oak - if it has the same pore structure as red oak then it's probably going to have the same water wicking properties and decay problems that red oak has. If it looks like white oak, however, I'd think you'd be O.K.

Other thoughts:

If you have accees to the trees, look around the trees for fallen branches that have been on the ground for a while. Do they appear to have held up against decay?

Get a sample, bury it in a compost pile or other wet ground and dig it up in a year and see what condition it's in.

Contact your local extension division or forestry managament department and ask ? ? ? ? ? ?

[duluthboats]

You may have lost your other posts because you had duplicate posts in different areas. It is difficult to tell if you are soliciting for information or customers. Live oak in general is from the white oak group. It is the heaviest oak, with a specific gravity of .88 when dried to 12% moisture. Live oak was at one time used extensively for ship timbers.

Gary

[TheFisher]

Canyon oak falls in the intermediate range of white and black oak.

[poetprince]

thanks so far folks
i appreciate the input
and no
i am not attempting any form of solicitation
at least not at this point
if the opprtunity comes up for me to market
i will do my best to place that info in the appropriate places

i am still curious though about it's properties
more specifically
can it be used as a keel, keelson, forefoot, stem etc..?
much of what i have access to is quite large in diameter
the pieces i have do tend to check somewhat if dried too quickly
but i have seen some old beams in some buildings where i am working these days
some are over a 100yrs. old and look beautiful
the problem in judging them though
is that i am presently in the high desert country of southern california
(i know..strange place for a boatbuilder..it's a long story)
it is sooooo dry here in fact
that even my tool handles have shrunk
hammerheads are loose, chisel handles too
so my concerns are along the lines of..will it swell too much in a coastal setting
i have cut a few of the branches into matching knees and the grain is lovely
much the same as some white oak i used in Maine
someone mentioned black oak
i have a limited access to this as well
what exactly is the difference
is it more like red oak?
i've seen it used locally in flooring applications
but again
my interests are in boatbuilding
and no one in this neighbourhood has a clue about boats

~poetprince

[duluthboats]

It looks to me like it would be a very good choice for boat building from small knees to keel timbers.

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/si...hrysolepis.htm

Gary

[pungolee]

You put this stuff in the water and it will swell like hell.Canyon timber takes years to grow to any size,sipping and sucking the little water available from infrequent flash floods.Its narly dense nature tells you it wont stand highly humid conditions on a regular basis unless sealed to perfection.I would,however use it for stern/transom knees in a runabout,just to see what it would do.You go cutting old growth Canyon and you might find yourself a victim of the Eco-police.Instead,experiment with class cuttings of redwood gleaned from the local sawmill.

[poetprince]

not too worried about the ecoPolice
as i am presently the Tree Services Coordinator here in San Diego county
where wildfires destroyed and devastated the land, livliehoods and homes
of much of southern California last year
we're working on a massive fire prevention program
a major part of this is the clearing of tens of thousands of acres
funded largely by a grant from the US Forest Service
contracts are being given for everything from county right of ways
evacuation routes, emergency access routes and potentially dangerous areas
as well as private lands and parks, preservation areas etc..
to avoid the costs of processing each and every tree
which by the way would be hundreds of millions of dollars
the county in it's wisdom has decided to make the individual contractors
the new owners of any tree that hits the ground
the problem with this is two-fold
first off, the fire marshals have deemed it unsafe to leave the wood in piles
secondly, the contractors cannot absorb the cost of removal
for instance..trucking, bucking etc..
the easiest way is to chip it into mulch
for companies with large equipment this is not too severe a problem
but then that makes it difficult and/or impossible
for the local guys to stay employed
many of whom also lost their homes
the other problem with creating this much mulch
is that it covers the forest floor impeding healthy growth of an understory
which in turn does little to improve the health of the forest as a whole
and then for sure the ecoPolice are going be up in arms
my goal is to help research possible recycling options for these tree products
for it makes me cry
to see the stuff they are chipping and bucking into firewood
i am not looking to sell anything
so i hope the web administrators don't get upset with me
i am merely looking to my fellow boatbuilders for suggestions/directions

thanks for your help

~daniel flynn
julian, california

[duluthboats]

Daniel,

Your first post was a little vague and I misunderstood your intensions. One person I can think of who may have more information then the rest of us is Richard Jangels, (? spelling) he has the wood technologies section in WoodenBoat magazine. When I get home I’ll see if I can dig up some contact info for you.

Good luck
Gary

[duluthboats]

Dr Richard Jagels, professor of forest biology at the University of Maine, Orono. Correspondence care of WoodenBoat, woodenboat@woodenboat.com .

Please keep us informed what you find.

Gary

[poetprince]

thanks again
i'll send an email soon
i did crosspost this on their forum
i'd forgotten about that section of their magazine though
too busy staring at the pretty pictures i suppose------>hehehe

~poetprince

[pungolee]

All you need is a bandsaw/sawmill and a router table shaper.This wood would do wonderful rip sawn to 3/4 inch thickness and inner groove cut(1/4 to 1/2)to sell nationwide as picture frame material.When assembled and coated with thin epoxy and varnish the natural grain would take off like you wouldnt believe.Why buy exotic when there is so much cool wood being chipped?With the right publicity your frame stock would command a premium price,you are in effect gleaning profits from tragedy so that the gleaner who lost may gain.There are a million other good uses for this wood,birdhouses with designer tin roofs are hot in the South right now,I know that Canyon Oak would look very good as stock.Don't laugh,a friend of mine started a bootstrap business constructing bird houses and now runs a successful cabinet company.Many restaraunts such as Darryells in the East utilize narly paneling for mood and atmosphere,the planks don't need much treatment,just nail them up and be amazed.Be bold with the chippers,they will take over,insist on ripping the widest,nicest saw bucks into planks,stack it properly where air can circulate on old pallets(they are free here in the South,they may cost a couple of dollars a pc. out there),and then begin to experiment with your stock.Wipe it down with Lacquer thinner and varnish several pieces.Apply Linseed oil or tung oil to some.Create sample trays you can mail out to people,they don't have to be perfect.There are cheap patterns for Adirondac chairs available,they always sell well properly assembled and the texture of your stock may add something.I'm sorry I was so abrupt in the earlier post.

[poetprince]

and i'm sorry i was so vague
or mysterious even
this is fabulous information
and i do appreciate every word
i'm rather new to the site
and also new to my present function
and i didn't want to offend anyone
or break any rules of protocol
i'll also be deciding what to do with some other woods
Coulter Pine for example
there is also some Ponderosa Pine
but i think there are existing markets established for that

thanks again
and please
keep the ideas coming
i have meetings with some pretty together people
from forest service to state senators
all are willing to help in some way
that's the wonderful thing

*smiling today*

~poetprince