original plans and restoration

[woden]

hi-this is my first post here and just wanted some opinions from fellow shipwrights concerning having the original plans in hand whilst completely rebuilding a hard worked racing yacht
this is because i may be getting involved in a rebuild and there is an issue with geting the lines.
i have already restored a six metre (that had had its strernpost and plank lands chainsawed off!)-and must confess to finding the plans of limited use
your opinions would be most welcome

[PAR]

The plans can offer some details that may be necessary in a full up, high end restoration of a prized and valuable yacht.

The lines may be the most important thing you need, so you can insure the boat has the shape it was intended to have. I find lines can be invaluable when removing a hog or sagging bilges, so you know when to stop.

Most builders look over the plans and then build in their own fashion, unless the designer is well noted or visiting the yard frequently to check on the progress of the project. This isn't as common as it once was. Many yards now have to follow the plans because they don't have skilled builders, just craftsman that can follow instructions or a plan. Also designers aren't called on to over see projects as they once were, so they lose grasp on the end results in quality and ability.

Given a choice, I'd always want the lines minimum on hand. It eliminates guessing what the boat is supposed to be shaped like. If it's a full on, just like it was intended restoration, the plans will be necessary.

[woden]

Originally Posted by PAR

The plans can offer some details that may be necessary in a full up, high end restoration of a prized and valuable yacht.

The lines may be the most important thing you need, so you can insure the boat has the shape it was intended to have. I find lines can be invaluable when removing a hog or sagging bilges, so you know when to stop.

Most builders look over the plans and then build in their own fashion, unless the designer is well noted or visiting the yard frequently to check on the progress of the project. This isn't as common as it once was. Many yards now have to follow the plans because they don't have skilled builders, just craftsman that can follow instructions or a plan. Also designers aren't called on to over see projects as they once were, so they lose grasp on the end results in quality and ability.

Given a choice, I'd always want the lines minimum on hand. It eliminates guessing what the boat is supposed to be shaped like. If it's a full on, just like it was intended restoration, the plans will be necessary.

you raise some valuable points here,but short of relofting from the offsets and making templates or taking measurments how could you use the plans?
surely a good eye and photos could go along way?
any help would be much appreciated

[PAR]

Lets say you're doing a restoration and you've disassembled the boat, steamed some frames, installed new planking, repaired the stem and transom framing. You removed parts, remade them and installed them as you remembered or the pictures you took. Now you move on to elements of the interior furniture and cabinetry, which was partly removed, modified or otherwise butchered up, before you got the project. The plans will show how things went together and their original locations.

Without a set of plans, rebuilding a Concordia yawl's deadwood assembly (for example) can be a exercise in frustration. Sometimes things are so badly neglected and/or altered, you can't tell what was really going on when originally built. This is when the purchase price of the plans set, pays for itself.

I've done a fair number of restorations and I've yet to see a traditionally built boat (with some real age on it), that didn't have some distortion issues. You can just rebuild what is there, making a good guess at the shapes or you can make some station templates, to insure the bilges have been jacked back to where they belong or a hog removed from an old letter rule boat.

If you are particularly experienced with the type of yacht you're working on, then your "eye" can be the guide (generally). If you're not, then the only accurate guide is the lines drawing. Plans show details and construction elements, the lines the shapes. Sometimes these are the only tools or connection you'll have with the original concepts, methods, and techniques of the designer and builder's efforts. The value of these may, at times seems minimal, but the moment you're stuck, they become priceless.

I remember a sailboat I did years ago. It was a sweet thing with wonderful overhangs, which nearly doubled its LWL at 20 degrees of heel. The owner reported she'd picked up a "weird looking quartering wave" in the last few years. He described it as farther forward and taller then it use to be and that the boat clearly had slowed, in light air especially.

The restoration found and fixed a serious flaw in the very canted stern post assembly and later half of the deadwood. This restored her shape, removed the nasty hook and along with other issues, typical of an old war horse like this was. She sailed faster then previously, even better then the original when new. She was built to the line drawing and had the mistake, which was made while on the original lofting floor, removed. The owner was very pleased and the weird quarter wave disappeared. Of course this mistake wouldn't have been caught if the lines drawing wasn't consulted.

I'm not sure how much help this will be, but again, given a choice, I'll take the plans every time.

[woden]

thanks for taking the time to share your experiences with me,your anecdote of the sail boat makes interesting reading,i too have picked up on flaws from the original build on so called thoroughbreds and i appreciate at the time of the original build mistakes in the build have to be corrected later in the build and quickly as these boats were often built to a tight budget.
racing old boats has also been affected by changes in advances in rig and sail design and materials,we are seeing more and more old sail boats pulled apart by wound up rigs and modern unforgiving sails.
in a really bad case would you go so far as to reloft the boat to get station shapes,do you think that this could be justified in the rebuild budget or would you just use the plans as reference?
if this rebuild goes ahead i would like to see as much of the original boat retained as possible.
thanks once again

[woden]

oh-just out of interest ,how much do you think would be a fair price for a set of plans for a historic 45 foot nat herreshoff (for example),just interested thats all

[PAR]

I think the plans for old capt. Nat's efforts will be available from MIT. Herrshoff is considered a deity by many in the industry, so his work, even well after his death and any possible account of protections afforded him, is highly prized. In other words you'll pay accordingly, though not absorbently.

Each set of plans will have a specific value placed on them, I wouldn't want to hazard a guess, though a few hundred for a moderate size cruiser, sounds reasonable. Which boat are you interested in?

[woden]

Originally Posted by PAR

I think the plans for old capt. Nat's efforts will be available from MIT. Herrshoff is considered a deity by many in the industry, so his work, even well after his death and any possible account of protections afforded him, is highly prized. In other words you'll pay accordingly, though not absorbently.

Each set of plans will have a specific value placed on them, I wouldn't want to hazard a guess, though a few hundred for a moderate size cruiser, sounds reasonable. Which boat are you interested in?

the designer of the boat concerned is of a similer standing to herrshoff and at this stage i cant really give you the name of the boat or designer to protect certain parties .
i agree with what you say ,the rub is that the owner of these plans wants many thousands of dollers for copies of the originals!

[PAR]

If you drop me an email or IM with the model boat and the designer's name as well, the plans may already be available. I'll see what I can do. No one's name needs protection after the boat is built, hell it's public record. This plans owner is either the original client, the estate of the dead designer looking to suck up on someone else's efforts for as long as they can or a former owner. It's possible it's a trust for the designer, but in any case a reasonable argument can be placed with them if you know how to go about it.

In other words, they have a clear choice. They can hoard the plans, for all that will get them, which is zip. They can let a current example of the designers work rot or be built to a different standard or they can be reasonable with contracted arrangements set down to "protect" their "privacy"