Old boat, new life.....

Hi folks,

Some 6 years ago I decided to purchase a 1973 Silverton dual station cruiser from a fellow who used to work for me (I'm since retired). This old girl has become my hobby over the years, and a great learning experience. I'm new to this forum so I'll briefly tell the tale for anyone interested.

If you're not familiar with this style boat, shes essentially a 25 1/2 foot flybridge cruiser. After looking at all kinds of boats (some much larger) back in 2001 I decided on this one because:

1. I didn't need a larger boat for the type of boating that I do (short trips with the family, longer trips single handed).

2. The engine, a Perkins 220 (gas 302 Ford v8) was sound with 1000 honest hours on the meter.

3. The boat was very well maintained.

The upside: A heavy fiberglass hull, no blisters.

The downside: Decks and cabin fabricated of wood. So of course we have the rotten boat issue in all the corners and wherever someone ran a fastener into the boat.

I knew all this going in and also knew I was going to retire and that I'd want something to keep me busy and out of my wifes hair. I bought this boat cheep, but knew that she'd need a significant investment in time and materials to make her good (or better) than new.

I really didn't get started on this project until 2004. I took my time looking at the boat and determining how I wanted to go about the restoration. I considered patching rotted spots and spent much time finding all the flaws.

I finally decided in 2004 to do a complete rebuild of the decks and cabin (including a completely new interior). As I'm sure many of you know this is a BIG project, especially if you're working alone. I did my homework and read many books by Calder, Bolger, Seward, and others. I spent a lot of money at Amazon on books before I ever seriously picked up a wood working tool.

Over the past two years I've spent my time carefully disassembling this old boat. I've spent many hours constructing new parts by using the old parts as templates. I wanted to stay true to the original design as much as possible. A notebook and digital camera has been helpful in keeping me organized as well.

I have the interior, cabin and the deck parts fabricated and am just now starting to reassemble this boat. I've used good quality marine grade Okume and Douglas Fir plywood from the nice people at Boulter Plywood in Boston (I have relatives there and combine wood runs with family visits) and epoxy from System 3. She is fastened with Silicon Bronze. All new electrical panels from Blue Sea Systems. New wiring from Ancor. Fiberglass, tools and paint come primarily from Jamestown Distributors and Mertins Fiberglass Supply in Springfield Mass. Framing, beams, etc are Phillipine Mahogany. Interior finish is primarily HPDL, enterior bulkheads are finished with Interlux Perfection over epoxy/fiberglass. Decks and cabin sides will be done with Perfection after they are installed.

I have four issues going forward.

The windshield area was originally constructed much like an auto with the angle of the windshield at 45 degrees to the vertical. This seems to be a very weak design. The roof pillars deteriorated greatly and on inspection the angle of the windshield had actually "flattened" to 41 degrees over the years. I'm assuming the original angle was 45 degrees as everything else on the boat is very straightforward in terms of construction. I'm considering redesigning the windshield so as to make it more vertical (and stronger). Can someone point me to some good information regarding windshield construction? Does anyone have a good supplier that they can recommend in good conscience? If I go this route I'll also need to reconfigure the cabin sides as the original side windows will not fit if I alter the windshield construction.

The cabin entrance door is a custom aluminum piece. It's essentially a screen door with glass inserts to keep water out (similar to the type of mechanisms used on old storm windows of the 70's). I can strip and repaint this door and repair the screens, but I'd be interested in any ideas that anyone might have regarding building a new door.

The transverse bulkheads (under the cabin sole and in the engine compartment) were originally constructed of 1/2" plywood sheathed with heavy fiberglass cloth and resin (might well be polyester) and tabbed into the hull. Since I have the boat stripped down to the cabin sole I'm considering drilling a few 1/2 inch holes through the bulkhead tops and pouring epoxy resin into the bulkheads in an attempt to strengthen them. I know there is some rot in these bulkheads, but they are primarily sound based on what I can hear. They will only deteriorate further though, as we all know. Has anyone used this technique? Would I be better off "sistering" them?

Finally, I have some exposed plywood edges in the cabin interior. Silverton used an aluminum edge cap to cover, but these look pretty bad after 30 years of people banging around in there. I could use HPDL for the edges, much like you'd see on your kitchen countertop, but I believe that the edge of HPDL would not hold up well in the moist marine environment. Anyone had this issue come up? I'd be curious as to how you handled it.

Thanks in advance for reading this long post, any ideas would be greatly appreciated. For now I'll head for the boat club and be....missinginaction!

 

Hi MIA,

Just taking one item you mentioned, to whit:

"The transverse bulkheads (under the cabin sole and in the engine compartment) were originally constructed of 1/2" plywood sheathed with heavy fiberglass cloth and resin (might well be polyester) and tabbed into the hull. Since I have the boat stripped down to the cabin sole I'm considering drilling a few 1/2 inch holes through the bulkhead tops and pouring epoxy resin into the bulkheads in an attempt to strengthen them. I know there is some rot in these bulkheads, but they are primarily sound based on what I can hear. They will only deteriorate further though, as we all know. Has anyone used this technique? Would I be better off "sistering" them?"

First, I can't imagine what would be accomplished by drilling holes as you describe, and pouring/injecting epoxy. These sound like what are called "floors". You do indeed want to be concerned about their condition. You say you have stripped everything down to the cabin sole, which I gather means you've exposed the floors enough to "sound" them.
Any evidence of rot means removal back to sound wood; filling with epoxy will do little to "make good" this kind of problem. The floors are likely to be rotted alongside the hull in places.
My suggestion, based on what little I know so far, would be to drill-test suspect areas to first determine the extent of the damage.
Once you have a good idea of what areas are bad, that wood must be removed. If only a small part of a floor is bad, it may be possible to leave the rest of the floor in place, but as things go, you may find selective repairing of pieces to be more time consuming than entirely replacing them.
A long sawzall blade bent to a curve will quickly cut through tabbing and ply, leaving a small set of ridges easily ground down at least beyond any remaining wood (better to leave enough to see exactly where the floor was placed).
You can bet the resin used was polyester, by the way. Though methods have improved since the seventies, even today I doubt epoxy would be used in such a situation. Rather, more rot-resistent material would be embedded in polyester.
Floors should be replaced singly, in order to maintain hull integrity, in most cases. At any rate, think of this. I would suggest replacing the 1/2" ply with either 5/8" or 3/4" ply, and pre-encapsulating the pieces before installation with a thick layer of epoxy. No glass is needed--- the strength of the ply alone is now adaquate. The new pieces are then filleted alongside the hull with thickened (micro-fibers or cabosil, or mirco-balloons, etc.) using a 1" putty knife radiussed on the end or similar, and then tabbed in with a couple of layers of mat, or perhaps a base of mat and a layer of cloth or roving over that. Use epoxy for all laminating of tabbing.
While all this may sound like major work (you still have to add cleats across the tops too for screwing), you can be sure that the replacement frames form an excellent foundation for all that depends on their integrity both above and below.
Other items you mentioned require as much attention as this one, so for now, I'll sign off, waiting for your reply.

Alan

 

MIA,

There is not much I can add to Alan's comments. His knowledge in this area far exceeds mine. I would definitlely consider replacement of the floors/ engine beds. A failure there could have traumatic results.

May I say, it is very refreshing to see a new member who has obviously done his homework & is going about a project in an organized & workmanlike manner. Sounds as if the end result of your labour will be excellent.

Welcome to the forum. Take care.

Tim

 

I agree, Tim, it's rare to have such a well thought out "situation report". It can be real difficult to communicate when there are big holes in the description.

A.

 

Alan & Tim,

First, I'd like to thank you both for the time you spent responding and for the compliment. I've always loved to build things, although I was a businessman by trade. My very tolerant wife (who is not an avid boater, although she loves the ocean) and I agreed that I would restore this boat, but that I would not let the project negatively effect my 9 year old son or our family. I never would have gotten involved with this project had I not retired early. I'm 51 now and still young enough to physically handle doing this kind of work. Besides, it keeps my mind active. I also have the time and as you both surely know you need much time and patience to do this.

Alan, what I referred to as "transverse bulkheads" are technically the floors. (I'm looking at Seward's Boatbuilding Manual here at my desk). The reason I used the different termonology is that these floors more resemble bulkheads. As the hull is heavy fiberglass there are no actual "frames" supporting the floors. They are simply tabbed and tied into the stringers which were fabricated in a similar manner to the floors namely 1/2"plywood sheathed in resin/roving. I'll bring my camera to the boat club tommorrow and take a couple of photos.

I wondered about the floors (among the other things I mentioned), but you correctly zeroed in on the floors as they are the one item I mentioned that would be just about impossible to address once I put the boats interior back in. I can easily get to them now. Well, easily is a relative term, and based on what you've written I may well decide to pull the engine now rather than later and address the floors and the entire engine compartment (mounts and that stuffing box that I've been wondering about dealing with). Nevertheless better now, while everything else is out of the way.

Once again thank you for your time and advice. I'll post a few photos tommorrow.

Regards,

MIA

 

MIA, you do seem to have things well in hand, much to you wife's delight I'd suspect.

A few quick comments. When filleting those floors to the hull shell, don't use any micro-balloons. Use silica, micro-fibers, cab-o-sil or other high strength reinforcement and then tab these in with a layer or two of cloth. Micro-balloons have little to no structural value and are for fairing uses only.

Also several thin coats of unthickened epoxy on the floors (sole pieces, etc. too) rather then a thick coat. The idea is to build up the coating, just like paint. Mat will make a better bond on the rough surfaces in the bilge, but is difficult to make smooth. Personally I use cloth and skip the mat. I try to insure the surface is reasonably smooth with a grinder before hand. When coating wooden pieces with unthickened epoxy, the first couple of coats will leave less shinny areas. This is where the goo has sucked into the surface. Keep applying epoxy until it's uniformly shinny, everywhere. This way you'll know all is sealed.

The edges of plywood could be "banded" with real wood (veneer) or a tougher solution is to cut a groove and install edging designed specifically for plywood. These typically look like a "T" and the leg is inserted into a groove in the edge of the plywood (and glued). Your aluminum edges may have this feature. Cabinet shops will have a variety of different edge treatments, maybe worth a trip down the your local cabinet maker and have a talk. I like to use a strip of hardwood, glued to the edge, which I then roll over or otherwise cut a finish into (like a Roman ogee or something). The strip of hardwood can also serve as a fiddle it you think about how you'll handle horizontal surfaces, like counter tops, berths, etc., which will serve to hid the end grain of the ply and have the additional function of a fiddle or hand hold.

Aluminum cleans up pretty easily, though it usually is a messy job. Given a paint job, clear coat or even anodizing could provide another 30 years of service. Maybe a replacement door, made of wood, now that your skill level has increased.

I'd be inclined to reinforce the current windshield arrangement, then altering the sides of the cabin, and building a new windshield frame and cabin sides. Maybe a tie rod or other support should be considered before you pull out the reciprocating saw. The is a surprising amount of structure, likely in the frame and surrounding areas, like wires, plumbing and other things. Some pictures would be helpful in accessing this particular issue.

We have a great deal of information available on this site, in the form of previous postings and threads. I'm sure you have, but if not a search of related topics could prove useful.

 

Gentleman,



I took some time to photograph the floors and cabin sole on my old Silverton today. Since a picture is worth 1000 words I won't elaborate too much here.

The 4 photos detail the cabin sole and the floors. In the first photo I've removed a portion of the sole to expose the support system used to tie the cabin sole to the floors. Alan, I believe you refered to these fore & aft framing members as the clamps. They look a lot like floor joists in housing construction to me, so I'll refer to them as "joists" here. Correct me on the verbage please! These "joists" are simply #2 framing lumber, nothing special. I question their use in a boat, but they are 34 years old and in great condition, so maybe they knew something about saving a few dollars on wood in this particular application.

The 2nd photo was shot from below the sole. This view from inside the bilge area looking up shows an intermediate floor, the port inboard (engine) stringer on the left and the "joist" and sole above.

Third photo is a view of the joists and the floor that supports the rear of the cabin sole and the bulkhead that forms the rear of the cabin. This is the only floor that I believe is seriously deteriorated. On sounding I can easily hear and see that the fiberglass is completely delaminated from the interior wood (if there is any left!). I'll be exporing this floor in more detail over the next few days.

The last photo is the most interesting of the bunch. Zoom in on this one and you'll see that Silverton scarfed together the top two "joists" with a couple of plywood gussets. Look closely and you'll see that the framing sticks are not even the same size. Do you think that they ran out of 2 by stock that day? They just toenailed them into the rear frame, bolted the whole thing to the floor and screwed the plywood sole down. I would never have thought to do this, but these joists and the rest of the frame/sole assembly are really solid.

I noticed while taking these photos and poking around the floors and stringers there was never any material (wood) inside the fiberglass in the area of the limber holes at the bottom of the bilge. On a couple of stringers and floors I could get a finger up inside the limber hole and feel what appeared to be some type of hardwood (not plywood) in there. I'm going to make a tool that will reach in there so that I can find exactly where the wood starts. It would make sense to me that the builder might not put wood at the limber holes so as to not wick moisture into the rest of the floor or stringer.

I'd be interested in your comments. Thanks in advance for your advice.

MIA

 

Yep, those were the "dark years" in production yacht's history. Many poor practices (as you're finding) were employed. Open cell foam floatation, poor wet out of wooden components, less then ideal tabbing, resin starved areas, etc. They built way too many boats and a glut on the market continued for many years, driving a large percentage of builders under. Silverton was one of the high volume lesser quality builders of the era, unfortunately. As the sales went down, the glut and inventories went up so cost cutting (remember, wage and price freezes where on at the time as well as the first gas shortages) reduced what few quality methods and materials got put in the boats.

Those "joists" are stringers, if I'm on the right photo, sole support stringers. These were likely southern yellow pine, which is a wholesome, dense, resin filled wood, that resists rot very well. It's a favorite among boat builders and you can see why.

She looks better then I expected, though 'glass can cover a host of hidden ills. Keep on poking around with a scratch awl and see how much of the lumber is intact. Don't be surprised if much of the wood, tabbed to the hull shell is deteriorated badly, especially the pieces living low in the bilge where water could collect, pool and work its way through the tabbing or sheathings.

It's nice to see a person, new to this sort of thing, as organized and willing to prepare for the multiple tasks necessary to breath new life into this grand old gal, as you are. Keep up the good efforts, I have a feeling this will be a success story, worthy of much bragging in your future.

 

MIA,

I have to echo Par's, Tim's, and Alan's compliments on your planning and organization. Par's last comment on the quality of Silverton's production methods is all too true. I lived for many years near the factory in New Jersey, and I saw many of their boats in various stages of construction. The saving grace was that they were overbuilt. The materials and methods were low cost, but the hull was well built and the reinforcements were heavy. Your boat is in much better shape than many production boats of that era.

I'd like to see some photos of the topsides, particularly the forward areas. There was a discussion in another forum about replacing cabin glass on older cruisers; there is at least one firm specializing in retrofit packages from bare frames to turnkey installations. If I can find it, I'll post it or send it to you. Meanwhile, here is a book with a chapter on topsides repair, including window frames. http://www.davidpascoe.com/mid_size_power_boats_chapt7.htm

Looking forward to progress reports and the final product!

 

PAR knows his stuff, MIA. Quite a bit more than I do, as I'm primarily a carpenter.
You mentioned you thought I'd called the floors (or sole stringers---- depending on what part of the assembly is in question) "clamps". I didn't, but there is a place on boats where there are things called clamps. Sheer clamps run the length of the boat where the sides and the deck meet. Not so much actual clamps any more (though they were once the wood pieces that clamped the ship's frames), the name refers to any solid material that runs the length of the sheer.
Modern boats borrow a lot of names from the past, and confusion sets in when the building method (like fiberglass) uses parts in sort of the same way, but not quite.
Floors are a good example. Technically, a floor is a large, wide gusset. It need not be what supports the cabin sole, though it usually will. In the old days, and in genuine wood boats today, floors tie port to starboard frames, and also create a brace through which keel bolts are snugged up.
A bulkhead refers to more than a gusset. The bulkhead usually forms a wall that more or less completely fills a cross-section of the boat. If it is a semi-bulkhead, it is called a partial bulkhead. I usually think of stringers as longitudinal frames. The joists, as you call them, lie atop the gussets we are calling floors. They provide a means to attach the boards or ply that make up the cabin sole. Lacking a universal name for those pieces, PAR's term "sole stringers" is as good as any. They are the top portion of a built-up floor stucture, which in wooden boats would usually be a single piece of solid wood.

Alan

 

MIA,

I don't remember if this is the one I mentioned from the other forum, but they specialize in marine windows and frames.

http://www.boatwindows.biz/index.html

Hope this helps.

 

For what it's worth Alan and MIA, I'd prefer to think of stringers, as hull shell stiffening members, in direct contact with the hull. On larger craft, where you don't have deep enough floors or stringers to land the sole on, I think of it as a sole support assembly, typically made up of the grid like structure you see in those pictures.

The terms can be very disconcerting, as they change from method to method, area of the world to area of the world. One man's breast hook is another lady's bra clasp or a nailer could be another's cheek (preferably not a butt) . . .

 

Thanks for the responses everyone, it's great to get some input in these areas that I'm new to.

OK, we'll add sole stringers to my vocabulary. Sounds like a good name for an old rock & roll band doesn't it?

Charmc, you asked for some photos of the topsides. I'll see if I can take a couple today. I understand the topsides to be the actual side of the boat from the waterline up to the hull/deck joint.

You must have lived near Toms River, NJ. I have the old builders certificate which gives an address of 120 Kettle Creek Road for Silverton Marine Corp.

I appreciate the education regarding termonology. I can see how confusion can arise in this area, especially between wooden builders and those using fiberglass and other materials. I'm taking notes here too guys, thanks!

MIA

 

Topside photos

I managed to take 3 topside photos that Charlie was curious about.

She's a little chalked, but I've buffed small areas over the past years and she cleans up OK. I have my hands full with the inside work and she's under cover so I believe it's OK to leave the gelcoat alone for now.

I'll be away for the next week. Taking the family on a trip over to Boston and up to Bar Harbor, Maine. As I said before I promised my wife I'd keep my boat project in perspective and I have make good on my promise.

I'll post more when I return

Regards,

MIA

 

You'll be passing within five minutes of my house on your way up to Bar Harbor. If you get some time (though I'm sure you like candle shops and knick-knacks), take a trip a few miles to Southwest Harbor and see some nice boats. Also check out Bernard and Bass Harbor, all closeby. And, fewer tourists. If you really want to see the coast at its best, cross the bridge to Deer Isle. Drive to Stonington and get a lobster dinner there. Pass through Brooklin, home of Woodenboat magazine, and see some georgeous boats next door at Center Harbor, where Joel White's son Steve builds some big wooden boats. This area, along Eggemoggin Reach, has something for everyone, but is off the beaten track, so there are few if any toursist. Bar Harbor cannot compare.

Alan
Bar Harbor is just a zoo this time of year.