Newbie questions on stitch and glue

[APA-168]

Ok, so can somebody point me to or provide a basic but complete tutorial for the stitch and glue method of construction? Also is there a "non-toxic" or at least safer way of doing this than is suggested by most? I know it isn't very likely but I thought I'd ask anyways. The boat I will be building is a one sheet design I found on-line and this will be my first full size build (I build little ones from kits ) so please be explicit and don't kill me! Thanks!

[PsiPhi]

If you Google it you will find quite a number of tutorials online.
Ones from suppliers of the materials or boat plans are probably the most comprehensive.

I also found Ross Lilistone's photo-record of building First Mate [http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au] a very useful addition to any tutorial.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by APA-168

The boat I will be building is a one sheet design I found on-line and this will be my first full size build

Also if you give a bit more info of the boat plans (a link perhaps?) you choosed, helps to know what you are looking for..

[alan white]

Try Phil Bolger/ Dynamite Payson collaborations, such as the "Instant Boats" series of books. Most all of those designs are small boats and virtually all are stitch and glue.

Alan

[Pericles]

APA-168

Tutorials WITH boat plans will be of more help. These helped me.

http://bateau2.com/content/category/5/78/28/

http://www.fishyfish.com/tolmanskiff.html

http://www.devlinboat.com/sgfp.htm

http://www.glen-l.com/

http://common-sense-boats.com/

http://www.spirainternational.com/

Pericles

[PAR]

Stitch and glue construction is dependant on the physical properties of cured epoxy. The building method wouldn't exist without epoxy and there really isn't a substitute glue that can be used.

There are several books and a number of on line step by step "how to's" available.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by PAR

Stitch and glue construction is dependant on the physical properties of cured epoxy. The building method wouldn't exist without epoxy and there really isn't a substitute glue that can be used.

There are several books and a number of on line step by step "how to's" available.

Allthough Epoxy resins have ruled resent decades there have been other methods too. However they are much more (or less) impractical and demand either a lot pressure, heat or both of them during the curing process.

[Pericles]

Teddy,

PAR, more than practically anyone who posts here, knows the history of S & G.
Just a word to the wise. It might be prudent to look at a contributor's previous posts or their gallery before stating the obvious. The original enquiry is for current information using methods that are approved by RCD and Lloyds etc. Confusion can occur if the the hot mould methods of WW2 are mentioned without pointing out nobody uses the method anymore.

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...00/ppuser/2040

PAR is a gentleman and would not have mentioned this, but sometimes rancor does arise and we all need to keep the forum sweet.

Pericles

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Pericles

Teddy,

PAR, more than practically anyone who posts here, knows the history of S & G.

Sorry! it was actually intended to informate the original poster becouse he asked (in a way) of other methods too. Not meaning in any way to "educate" PAR, just adding some back ground to the fact that epoxies are the "stitch and glue" method of today

[PAR]

I'm not easy offended, nor did I take such from Teddy, but thank you Pericles for the sensitivity protection. Now if I could only get that from the other half, life would be grand.

Stitch and glue didn't exist before wide spread epoxy use was established in the late 1970's. Epoxy was around much before this (about 30 years prior), but the concept of "stitching" panels of material together and hitting the seams with fabric, set in epoxy wasn't particularly common. Several are credited with the "concept", but I'm not sure who's story I want to believe.

Molded hulls have been around for a few hundred years, some requiring heat, others just multiple layers of material, typically placed on a male form. It uses a different engineering concept then stitch and glue.

Stitch and glue or taped seam requires a bonding flange be created at the panel joints to be mechanical effective. Adhesives used prior to epoxy didn't have the gap filling ability necessary to make this possible, though attempts where made with the first generations of polyester resins. Peel strength was an issue then (and now) plus moisture vapor penetration issues caused it's general discontinuation.

All other building methods generate a mechanical flange (which may also have some glue tossed in for good measure). A classic example of this would be batten seam construction, where the panel attachment is fasteners to a backer batten, with any glue (or sealant) in the joint, a secondary consideration from a structural stand point. None of the previous building systems could stand without fasteners to structural elements, including the molded methods. Stitch and glue or taped seam can stand without fasteners, in fact most do. We think of this as "liquid Joinerary".

[Petros]

If you want an alternative construction method that is non-toxic, usually lighter and less expensive to build, and usually less time to build as well, consider adapting the design to skin-on-frame. S and G designs are easily adapted to a skin-on-frame design because of the hard chines and there are no "hollows" in the hull.

Basically you build a solid wood frame with stringers where the normal S and G joints would be, and cover the hull with a heavy synthetic fabric such as polyester, and seal it with polyurethane floor finish. The method is primarily used on native type sea kayaks, but it has been adopted to a number of larger vessel. The frames or bulkheads can be built up frames or cut from plywood, the keel and gunwales form the primary structure fastened to the frames by conventional fasteners or by lashing as used in the kayaks. I have used it on a number of boats, including a 14 foot sloop. And according to legend St. Brendan the Navigator took a 36 foot skin-on-frame sail boat from Ireland to North America in the 7th(?) century and back to Ireland long before Columbus and Leif Erickson.

If you really want to go "natural" you can even use a canvas skin with boiled linseed oil finish, and with a lashed frame, there would be no toxic compounds in the hull at all. Though I would prefer polyester and urethane skin since it lasts longer and weighs less. You can also use any oil based paint with bright colors, or you can add pigments to the urethane finish.

[APA-168]

Thanks for all your input. I was going to include a link to plans, but I decided I want something a bit more capable and am now looking at other designs. I have another question: is there an alternative method to glassing seams? Sorry if this is just a rephrase of my previous question but I have no idea, I really am figuring all this out for the first time.

Thanks again.

[alan white]

Before seams were glassed, before epoxy and even befor polyester resin, seams were framed with "logs" or longitudinal members. Plywood arrived sometime in the first half of the 1900s and old methods were used to connect panels together.
Screws, nails and rivets made the mechanical connection.
There is nothing wrong with the older methods. They are simple and they work reasonably well.
What glassing does is create a high tensile surface which, when combined with a thickened putty (epoxy or polyester based) gives tremendous stiffness to a joint. The putty prevents a flexing of the joint by seperating the inner and outer high tensile surfaces.
Where chine logs and other frame parts required, a lot of labor, careful fitting and well chosen fasteners, the taped joint is stronger, easier to make, and if correctly done, its also trouble free and long lasting.
So there are alternatives, but if plywood is involved the taped joint is king.

A.

[TeddyDiver]

Time to time there pop up's something like this http://www.supermarket.fi/id/59049 In this case the cluing was made with Aerolite allthough it more or less seems obvious that the constructor had been totally clueless

[APA-168]

Thanks again. One more question, is there a one part, solvent and epichlorohydrin free epoxy suitable for boat building? I know that epoxies actually aren't really that dangerous, but they are a bit safer without solvents and epichlorohydrin.