Mirror 16 foot Sailing Dinghy

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by goolawah, Jun 6, 2006.

  1. goolawah
    Joined: Oct 2005
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    Location: Brisbane, Australia

    goolawah Junior Member

    Hi Rod,

    Attached is pic of carlin (don't recognise it from the definition :p ). Sorry it's not better but it's always tricky getting photo's inside a boat. As you can see the end that fits to the inwale also butts up against the double that backs up the chain plate.

    Accuracy may also be slightly compromised by the 'asymptote' (been waiting to use that since high school).

    Anyway, by my measurement it is 560mm from the tip that meets the deck beam to the tip that meets the inwale and the doubler, if you get what I mean. I would allow another 10 to 15 mm to the projected end if the doubler wasn't there.

    It's 22.5mm thick, +- a bit for glue line between carlin and deck ply.

    I hope that helps.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. goolawah
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    goolawah Junior Member

    Hi ICLYM,

    Hopefully, you will be encouraged by the fact (revealed in this forum) that you are not alone. I doubt if there's any Mirror 16 owner who doesn't have a similar story to tell. I would defnitely examine under the cockpit floor!

    The Mirror 16 was designed to be easy for amateurs to build from a pre-cut kit (there was no other way). The materials back then (Aerodux glue came with the kit) was nowhere near as strong and durable as modern epoxy. Consequently, many have not surived. Those that did have required major recovery work.

    Rob's plans open up a new range of possibilities including building direct from plans, making kits and building from them, or restoring an 'old girl' with reference to precise dimensions.

    It's certainly a possibility worth considering that you could keep the original trailer, sails and rigging, and build a new hull. Very likely it would produce a better result, with less effort, than going through the restoration process. Unless, of course, you really can't bring yourself to destroy the present hull. (do they still have Guy Fawkes night in the UK? :D )
     
  3. Ozducati
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Brisbane

    Ozducati Mirror 16 #189

    G'day John,

    Thanks for the photo and dimensions. Photo was perfect!

    With regards to my model/plans: you could definitely build a boat that would look very much like a Mirror, and would probably pass the Class Measurement rules, but I would be wary of attempting to use one of my panels to replace a damaged item on an original Mirror16. Best bet for replacement would be to 'detach' the old panel as cleanly as possible and use it as a template for the new one. If someone was prepared to completely disassemble their Mirror it would make my job a lot easier (and more accurate). When I finally get this model built I reckon you and I should get together and do a bit of a comparison to your boat so we can see where I have gone wrong.

    Man, it was hot here at Cleveland today! It touched on 38 degrees in the factory. I took my engineering team out for a roast lunch at the Alex Hills hotel (only $6.50 when you buy a pot) just for a bit of a break. We have finished work for the year and will be starting back on the 5th of Jan, so I might get the chance to catch up with you (kids are on hols too so depends on what fits in with their entertainment schedule).

    We (fitters, sparkys & engineering) were presented with a proposal for a deal to go work in Thailand to help recommission the factory... 4 x six week stints for what works out to be about a 40% paycut. Needless to say none of my guys are over-enthusiastic about the offer and upper management can't understand why no-one wants to go. Apparently we are "opportunists who are holding the company to ransom" :?: :?: :?:

    By the way, how many Mirror 16s are on the list now? It seems like every time I log on some one new has posted some info about their boat.

    Anyway, Merry Christmas to everyone who reads this and have a happy (and safe) New Year.
     
  4. ICLYM
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: Lymington UK

    ICLYM Junior Member

    Mirror 10, Mirror 16

    Hi thanks but I think I have a job to do !! For info please find attached photos of Mirror 10 which is now nearly finished. These old plywood boats have done great service, and I feel it is much easier to restore them than grp boats of a similar age. Hopefully the 16 will make it like the 10 and avoid the Guy Fawkes celebrations and may be there might be some new boats if we all put our heads together. Ivan
     

    Attached Files:

  5. goolawah
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    goolawah Junior Member

    Good on yer mate! I didn't mean to be discouraging. Go for it.:!:

    She looks lovely. Launching in the spring?

    Absolutely right about the GRP. Nasty stuff to work with.

    We started down this path with a failed resoration (named Cinderella, as in Cinderella shall go to the ball!). She was a 21'6" Robert Tucker designed Ballerina bilge keeler in very bad shape. After three years of removing rotted or delaminated plywood, we abandoned her to a practice bonfire by the local fire brigade. Very sad.

    Next was a Mirror 10 Snow White which we completed successfully and have now sold. She was a lovely little boat to sail, but too small for two ageing adults to sail comfortably. The Mirror 16 is just to BIG in comparison. Mirror 10s are still a very popular class (particularly in Ireland I believe) and I have a wonderful picture, on the font cover of an Australian Sailing magazine, showing 92 Mirror 10s lined up for the start of their world champs in Hobart Tasmania some years ago.

    Being of simpler construction (no under floor webs) Snow White was a good practice run for Lulubelle. And she provided is with a boat to sail during the 15 months we were working on Lulubelle.

    Piccies below of Cinderella and Snow White.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. dream458
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    Location: Lawrence, Kansas

    dream458 Junior Member

    Rod,

    I think the biggest problem with the old ribs is that they had too much cut out of them... laminating with a second 4mm will probably do it, the other option is to use 6mm ply and cut less out of them in the first place, reduce the number of parts needed to assemble the substructure. When I fixed all my broken ribs, I think I used 6mm ply with some rough circles cut out of them and glued them to the original rib. Havn't had a problem under the floor since...

    Mine is the white with the finished deck, it really does justice to the classical nature of the boat. Send me a picture when you are done!

    What program are you doing the CAD in? I am an aerospace engineering graduate student so I have access to the programs as well... so I was just wondering. The drawings look great so far!

    Katrina

    PS- I got a box of clamps for Christmas, so I better get to work fixing Dream Come True !(Hull 458)
     
  7. goolawah
    Joined: Oct 2005
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    Location: Brisbane, Australia

    goolawah Junior Member

    I absolutely agree with this. I think all of our local (Brisbane) M16s have treated replacement ribs in this way.
    Happy New Year Katrina! Never too many clamps, as they say!

    Cheers,
     
  8. thudpucker
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    Location: Al.

    thudpucker Senior Member

    I'm wondering if those thin ribs being enclosed in a space that might be damp, warm with no air circulating, didnt weaken the ribs like the beginnins of rot?
     
  9. goolawah
    Joined: Oct 2005
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    Location: Brisbane, Australia

    goolawah Junior Member

    You bet... Coupled with standing on the centre board to right the boat after a capsize, and possibly hitting sand-bars or rocks. It certainly looked as if the centrecase on Lulubelle had been seriously wrenched sideways by some such activity. Given the that the floor webs were probably already weakened by moisture induced rot, it's not surprising that they got smashed.

    Having observed the consequences we are careful to drain the bilges after sailing, to keep her under cover to prevent rainwater ingress, and to open the ports we have added to the floor, so that she can dry out easily and quickly.

    Another option these days is to thoroughly impregnate the floor webs with epoxy. Probably not an option when M16s were originally built.

    Cheers,
     
  10. Ozducati
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Brisbane

    Ozducati Mirror 16 #189

    G'day Katrina,

    I have used a bit of a mix of software to develop the 3D model.
    First was Autocad which I used to create a few 2D sketches showing the minimum and maximum material sizes based on the Mirror 16 Class Measurement Form.
    The 2D drawings were used to create a 3D framework. A series of splines were then drawn through the measurement points to create the edges of the hull.
    I create a text file using the cartesian co-ordinates of the thru-points of the splines and import that into Freeship as marker lines. Once the hull is defined in Freeship I export the undeveloped panels, hull edges, hull surfaces, and stations back into Autocad.

    This seems to work well, although I'm not happy with the result as there are a number of curves that can fit thru the designated points, so I have tweaked the curves based on photos. Of the six(?) versions I have created so far there has always been something that doesn't match up with the original Mirror Hull, even though it would pass a Class Measurement.

    The best would be to sit a hull on some stands on a flat floor and use a plumb-bob, chalk and rule to take points from the hull. At least then I know it would be spot on.

    Using 6mm ply for the would be less mucking around.

    Clamps for Christmas!! You must have been good this year...... I only got socks & hankies :(
     
  11. goolawah
    Joined: Oct 2005
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    goolawah Junior Member

    I received the following email, and M16 picture from Barrie Skelcher of Slaughden Sailing Club in the UK.

    Happy New Year. I am tackling the restoration of an old M16 I found in need of some TLC. I have spliced in part of the transom and am now doing the floor on the aft end of the boat. Not being too good with my woodwork I am laying a new floor over the old one. I have not only cut out the rotten bits but also a lot of good ply to give access to the inner bilge, which I have repainted, and also reduce the weight. Thought you might like to see a pic of what under the floor looks like, (if you have not already done so). The webs appear to be at 12 inch intervals.

    Regards

    Barrie
     

    Attached Files:

  12. ICLYM
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: Lymington UK

    ICLYM Junior Member

    Dream 458 Cut outs in Frames

    Hi katrina
    I think cut outs in frames should be kept to a minimum, since unless the cut out is well sealed with epoxy, or a very good paint, it is inevitable that water will get into the end grain, and cause the ply to rot/delaminate, especially in the enviroment of the double bottom of a 16.
    I appreciate holes must be cut at the centreline in the bottom of the frame to allow for passage of water inside the hull but again it is important to seal the end grain.
    I hope this helps.

    Ivan
     
  13. ruahatu
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Location: Bainbridge Island, WA, USA

    ruahatu New Member

    New (and Old) Mirror 16 Dinghy Builder

    Hello to all,

    I'm new to this site but have an old connection to the Mirror 16 Dinghy. My wife was raised with the Dinghy. Her family built the 16 Dream Come True many years ago and now there are three in our extended family. We discussed the need to help rebuild these boats at a recent family reunion. My Wife and I live on Bainbridge Island in the Pacific Northwest, US.

    I'm very interested in developing a set of construction patterns for the 16. I have access to the construction manual for this kit via a Brother-in-law. Dream458 (Katrina) is a Niece. Bob who send the photo of the three beached 16 is my Father-in-Law. I'm retired and have built several boats under stitch and glue along with lagstrake. I've seen the posted effort underway with the CAD work. I've started to pull together all the construction data but have no access to CAD data.

    Anyway, I'm glad I found you folks. Will be in touch.

    Dean (ruahatu)
     
  14. tsunami2004
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Location: thailand

    tsunami2004 New Member

    Hey mate..not sure if your stil around..I am retired inon a rubber plantation TrangThailand and have recently sold my Vagabond 42 and want to build me a mirror for gunkholing around the islands.Would like to reverse engineer one but not locatable in land of smiles..did you ever put together any plans..been unable to buy or steal any as the one designers keep it to kits..mmm
     

  15. tsunami2004
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Location: thailand

    tsunami2004 New Member

    Sorry dean new on line with this thread and was replying to an old one I found before i signed up..will be interested to get a look at the plans for the 16..do you intend to market them as i would certainly like a set..
    rgds
    david
     
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