Manhours

[Karsten]

I have a bit of a problem. I'm trying to estimate how many manhours it would take to build a 42ft yacht. The hull is going to be strip planked and the deck is going to be traditional teak.

I know it all depends on:

- Exact dimensions of the boat
- Skills and experience
- Tools
- Workshop layout
- Fitout
- ....

Also, has anybody some experience how much time could be saved if the interior panels are cut on a CNC router? I have digital drawings. I know the hull has to be made with small tolerances otherwise the panels are not going to fit.

Any ideas?

Cheers,
Karsten

[gonzo]

If you're building a yacht, the hull and deck will only be 5 to 7% of the total labor. Joinery and fine fitting will be most of the rest.

[PAR]

The building process in any medium of any product is dependant on many variables.

A production shop can pop hull and deck assemblies out of molds very quickly, but a production shop asked to do a one design they have no mold for, would take considerably longer. A shop setup to churn out one off's, would be hard pressed to take on another medium or technique.

Typically, hull and deck structures can amount to as much as 20%, usually less, of the total hourly requirements of the staff. CNC work on the station molds and other parts will cut time, but at a substantial cost. Yacht construction is 80% details and finish, the actual hull construction accounts for a pretty small part of the build.

Strip planking is labor intensive, though less skilled labor can be employed. Laying a traditional teak deck is also labor intensive and requires good craftsmen.

Clearly, by your post, you're aware of the difficulty in an accurate response. I guess the question is, what are you really looking to find out? Has the man hours itemized on a bid scared you?

[B. Hamm]

Too many variables. What is the experience of the shop, how many people are to be working on the boat. There are variations to the method of strip planking, not tapering the strips is faster, not as strong, etc. etc.

Bill H.

[Karsten]

It's about setting up a boat building business. I think that there is a market for well built, more individual "retro" yachts made from beautiful timber. Style instead of mass products made for the mass market.
To figure out if the idea is any good I have to work out how much it's going to cost to make the boats and then find out how many people are willing to pay for it. Labour costs are obvious a major item.
My guess is that it's probably going to take 4 people one year (7000 - 7500 hours) to built a boat like shown in the pictures. But it's just a guess and since I don't have much experience building boats I thought I ask people who might have more of an idea.
My experience is with aircraft maintenance and I have a rough idea about what's required to get a 747 out of the hangar in time. I also worked on the design of production lines and I know how important planing, logistics and ergonomics are to stop people from disappearing for half an hour to get some sandpaper.

Any help would be appreciated.

Karsten

[Eric Sponberg]

Karsten,
Two books will help you: "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction," by the Gougeon Brothers, Bay City, Michigan, USA. Also, "Small Ships," by Jay Benford. Both of these books give some guidelines on estimating building costs. Gonzo is right in that the hull and deck take very little time, and the interior takes lots of time.

Eric

[B. Hamm]

Lots of competition out there doing the same thing already. Takes experience to shorten the building process. Suggest working with an established builder for awile first to get some idea of the process and the times envolved. It's very difficult and quite expensive to set up a brand new wood boat shop and then you have to compete with those that have been in the market for years and already have an established rep.

Building boats is an excellent way to make a small fortune, from a large one.

Bill H.

[D'ARTOIS]

I have some experience running a shipyard turning out 20 yachts of variable lengths a year;
Your assumption of 7, 7,500 manhours is generally spoken a realistic parameter.
However, costs per boat vary from unit to unit. Only boats supplied from stock do have a fixed salesprice like Etap or Dehler or Janneau etc.
By having a client for a specific design, you me be slowed down by unexpected changes in the construction.
Joining present tendencies like the return to pre WWII designs is dangerous, as much as the proposed yacht by you with its negative IOR stern - a useless remnant from this old rule.
More important is - what can you do yourself? Timberboats are for the connoisseur, very difficult to sell to the general public, who knows only fiberglass constructions.
Any naval architect will supply you with a list of materials, you have to add the number of hours to have an idea about a naked costprice.
I can calculate a boat, but after the boat is finished, I may tell you what the exact price was. At least that's how it works in my business.
Sometimes clients will counterbid you and then it is up to you whether to accept or not.
Then, you have to position yourself in a very difficult market; if I look at the number of US-made boats in Europe, there are only very few brandnames that have found a solid market here.
Our yard used to export to all over Europe, per tradition the Dutch are THE yachtbuilders, although over the years many other foreign shipyards are able to compete nicely. Nontheless, if it comes to quality against a specific price the Dutch win mostly because of the fact that logistic lines here are extremely short. That is definately not the case in the US where it is extremely difficult to set up something in a distant location. Where there might be a big difference in costs of labour; varying from one state to another, one area to another one.
On the other hand there are plenty skillfull, very skillfull individuals who are capable to execute unexpectedly very beautiful jobs.
If you are able to compare your work with that of Ulli, let me know.

[terhohalme]

I woul'd vote a total of 1 h/kg in a custom made wooden sailboat. That is better than nothing, isn't it?

[pungolee]

You are in Australia.What you are talking about will require many hands.China,Indonesia,Korea.I hate to say it but thats the only way it will work out profitably,unless the Tsunami changed things.Too much labour needed.

[Karsten]

Thanks for the help!
I think pungolee is right. The future is probably mass produced fibreglass boats made in China. I was thinking of something more individual.

The next problem is to find out how many people are actually interested in a higher quality boat. Also all markets are a bit different. Here in Sydney racers like the Sydney 38 are popular. In northern Europe people are less interested in racing and want something more solid like Halberg Rassy. In the Mediteranean charter Janneaus are the way to go.

[B. Hamm]

Originally Posted by Karsten

Thanks for the help!
I think pungolee is right. The future is probably mass produced fibreglass boats made in China. I was thinking of something more individual.

The next problem is to find out how many people are actually interested in a higher quality boat. Also all markets are a bit different. Here in Sydney racers like the Sydney 38 are popular. In northern Europe people are less interested in racing and want something more solid like Halberg Rassy. In the Mediteranean charter Janneaus are the way to go.

Actually the question is how many people are interested in a high quality boat from a new untried builder. There are alot of builders out there already, many building top quality traditional material boats. Why should someone pick you?

This is what you need to ask, and have a realistic answer.

Bill H.

[Raggi_Thor]

One way to reduce manhours when building individual styled boats is CNC. Most of the interior is made of plywood that is ideal to cut directly from drawings. Most cnc shops can receive dwg or dxf files. I think this is the way to go if you don't want to work for 2$ per hour.

[Dutch Peter]

Originally Posted by B. Hamm

Actually the question is how many people are interested in a high quality boat from a new untried builder. There are alot of builders out there already, many building top quality traditional material boats. Why should someone pick you?

This is what you need to ask, and have a realistic answer.

Bill H.

Bill,

With your statement you imply that there's no room on the market for new builders/yards. That seams a bit strange to me.
Builders come and go, new and old, depending on economy, service, pricing, reputation, etc.
I think the question should be, is there a market for your product, rather then is the market waiting for a new builder.


Regards,

[B. Hamm]

I'm not saying it's impossible for a new yard to make a go of it, it is very difficult though, takes a fair amount of funding to keep it going until orders begin to come in. It is quite difficult to make money building boats even with an established yard with a customer base, it's obviously more so with an unknown yard.

That's one of the reasons that there are new yards coming and going.

Also some seem to think that there are few if any high quality yards around since they don't advertise, they don't advertise often to limit the amount of work they get, hard to keep up sometimes, and expanding to meet what may well turn out to be a temporary market is risky at best.

B. Hamm