A Head Turner From PAR

[Ad Hoc]

Originally Posted by daiquiri

A design is based on client's whish-list (or, more technically, a SOR), so if your wife is so determined about a sufficiently big shower, it imho should have been discussed with the designer right in the preliminary stage of the establishing the GA plan.

That reflects my thoughts too.

You're not alone D....but i'm sure there is more to the agreement/arrangement between Troy and PAR that meets the eye, hence haven't commented as such previously?

[PAR]

This design was an orphan and not fully fleshed out, when Troy came in and finished her off. The original SOR remained, with some minor changes to suit some of Troy's desires, saving him a considerable amount of money.

With home builds, I generally don't go into a lot of accommodations detail, though do offer a layout or two and furniture building ideas, as well as structural requirements in regard to partition and bulkhead placement. I've found that irrespective of the accommodations layout and detail I might provide, home built boats get what ever the builder decides to put in there (good or bad), so I've stopped bothering with the detail aspect, knowing they'll do what they want.

Through our conversations,I've discovered Troy is a skilled builder and woodworker. I'm sure he has more than enough information to build a fine little ship. As drawn the boat will work fine. His revisions seem reasonable and if they accommodate the better half, he's got a huge portion of the project handled. Lastly, I'm available and I'm sure I haven't received the last call from him on this project.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by daiquiri

Troy, what I really don't get is why are you discussing these things now, and have not discussed them before or in private with PAR? I believe someone who doesn't know what's going on could get an idea that PAR has designed a boat not in line with your expectations, which is imho unfair.

A design is based on client's whish-list (or, more technically, a SOR), so if your wife is so determined about a sufficiently big shower, it imho should have been discussed with the designer right in the preliminary stage of the establishing the GA plan.

But that's just my opinion.

Cheers

I've already gotten much more than I paid for, Daiquiri. This isn't a custom boat that was designed from scratch according to my SOR. Paul basically charged me for a set of stock plans off the shelf, because he was well into the job when his previous client backed out. Despite that, he very kindly incorporated some suggestions and ideas I had along the way as he finished the drawings. But it was always understood that some things were going to be flexible....

Originally Posted by PAR

Station 5 needs to be a bulkhead or ring frame Troy. You could extend the framing up the walls and tie into a hefty header, but this will eat up more space than a ring frame.

Paul, I think the exterior bulkhead between the cabin roof and pilot house roof should provide a lot of stiffness, along with the hanging knees and turned columns-- and the two 30" storage units will be built-ins, further tying things together. Adding to the stiffness, the section of exterior bulkhead will be skinned on either side; do you think it would need a heavy header anyway? By ring frame, do you mean add a few inches (or maybe a foot) of fully-framed bulkhead to either side, skinned on both sides like the rest of the cabin walls?

edit: I'll have to learn to type faster, or start getting up earlier; I see you already covered Daiquiri's point.

[PAR]

Frame 5 is the stiffest portion of the boat, as it had to be. Just aft of this point the bilge is very shallow, the cabin walls quite tall and a vast open expanse of main cabin make for limited opportunities to gain athwart stiffness. Compounding these issues, is the fact that the pilothouse steps cut into the bottom, centerline of this element. Think of the hull shell as the outer flange, the bulkhead as the web and any perpendicular surfaces, the inner portions of a flange. If the web is continuous (bulkhead surrounded by the hull shell/cabin walls and roof) an inner flange isn't completely necessary. A bit like an "I" beam with holes cut into it. If you remove large portions of the web, you'll need to replace it or add an inner flange.

The drawing you provided does replace most of it. My only consideration would be a 4" to 6" wide portion of the original bulkhead remain against the cabin walls. The step in the roof naturally retains some of the web in this area, but the cabin walls need this localized stiffness.

The turned columns don't contribute any stiffness to the area, though they do offer compression support for the roof above. The way I'd approach this treatment would be to make a full bulkhead, including the two vertical posts at the doorway. I'd then place pilasters on either side, which would make up the architectural detail of the columns, but the bulkhead would still be intact.

Simply put, make the bulkhead continuous and cut holes in it, to open things up, but leave a section paralleling the walls, between the knees and the cabinets, with a generous radius where the cut outs turn from the counter tops to the walls. This little section of bulkhead along the walls can be boxed in, to add some architectural substance, visual meat so to speak and further stiffen up the area. It would also be a great area to hide wiring, so maybe a boxed in chase.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by PAR

Frame 5 is the stiffest portion of the boat, as it had to be. Just aft of this point the bilge is very shallow, the cabin walls quite tall and a vast open expanse of main cabin make for limited opportunities to gain athwart stiffness. Compounding these issues, is the fact that the pilothouse steps cut into the bottom, centerline of this element. Think of the hull shell as the outer flange, the bulkhead as the web and any perpendicular surfaces, the inner portions of a flange. If the web is continuous (bulkhead surrounded by the hull shell/cabin walls and roof) an inner flange isn't completely necessary. A bit like an "I" beam with holes cut into it. If you remove large portions of the web, you'll need to replace it or add an inner flange.

The drawing you provided does replace most of it. My only consideration would be a 4" to 6" wide portion of the original bulkhead remain against the cabin walls. The step in the roof naturally retains some of the web in this area, but the cabin walls need this localized stiffness.

The turned columns don't contribute any stiffness to the area, though they do offer compression support for the roof above. The way I'd approach this treatment would be to make a full bulkhead, including the two vertical posts at the doorway. I'd then place pilasters on either side, which would make up the architectural detail of the columns, but the bulkhead would still be intact.

Simply put, make the bulkhead continuous and cut holes in it, to open things up, but leave a section paralleling the walls, between the knees and the cabinets, with a generous radius where the cut outs turn from the counter tops to the walls. This little section of bulkhead along the walls can be boxed in, to add some architectural substance, visual meat so to speak and further stiffen up the area. It would also be a great area to hide wiring, so maybe a boxed in chase.

Good enough. You're the experienced professional in this field, and you know what's needed to maintain the structural integrity of your design. You also just outlined a practical way for me to have my cake and eat it, too -- which if properly done, will also enhance the looks of the interior....

[rasorinc]

Troy, if you put a stand-up shower with a standard shower head you will go thru 6 to 10 gallons of hot water in about 3 minutes. My 2 bits. Will be a great boat.

[Angélique]

But how much water will this boat carry to shower like that . . . . ? ?

Cheers,
Angel

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by rasorinc

Troy, if you put a stand-up shower with a standard shower head you will go thru 6 to 10 gallons of hot water in about 3 minutes. My 2 bits. Will be a great boat.

Originally Posted by Angélique

But how much water will this boat carry to shower like that . . . . ? ?

Cheers,
Angel

Installing an almost standard-sized shower doesn't mean I'm going to encourage folks to lollygag about in it.

It doesn't need a standard shower head instead of a low-flow handheld unit, and people don't need to stand around until the hot water's all gone. 'Navy showers' will be the sensible way to go: get wet, turn the water off to soap up, then turn it on to rinse off.

I personally also enjoy bathing Japanese style: sitting on a stool with a bucket of water, a ladle and a soapy sponge. I can turn the shower on long enough to finish rinsing off, if there isn't enough water left in the bucket. It isn't nearly as much fun without a lovely and cheerful Japanese woman to scrub my back, and a big tub of hot water to soak in after rinsing, but I guess I can't have everything.

In the summertime I'm used to taking cold showers anyway, to cool down and rinse the sweat off. I can pull lake water aboard for that, if I don't feel like going over the side instead. And in the winter I doubt I'll have a crowd taking daily showers.

As I've said before, this isn't a passagemaker. I won't need to carry a month's worth of fresh water across the briny deep.... Cooking and drinking water will be from jugs, and the toilet will likely be an Airhead (or similar) marine composting toilet. The water tank will be reserved for dishes, showers, and washing hands.

[Angélique]

Originally Posted by troy2000

Cooking and drinking water will be from jugs, and the toilet will likely be an Airhead (or similar) marine composting toilet. The water tank will be reserved for dishes, showers, and washing hands.

You could have inboard and outboard water available at the galley sink as pre wash dishes and washing hands often can be done with outboard water.

Good luck !
Angel

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by Angélique

You could have inboard and outboard water available at the galley sink as pre wash dishes and washing hands often can be done with outboard water.

Good luck !
Angel

That makes sense, especially since the boat will be afloat in relatively clean freshwater lakes.

Of course the devil is in the details, as always. Do I add a through-hull fitting to a boat that's currently designed without any? Can I get away with just dropping a hose overboard when I'm anchored? Or....

[PAR]

Thru hulls are a matter of course, depending on equipment installed and system requirements. A perfect world has no hull penetrations, but reality usually requires several.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by PAR

Thru hulls are a matter of course, depending on equipment installed and system requirements. A perfect world has no hull penetrations, but reality usually requires several.

I've come to realize that like it or not, penetrations of one sort or another seem to be an unfortunate fact of life....

[PAR]

My other half tells me this all the time Troy . . .

[WestVanHan]

Originally Posted by troy2000

Installing an almost standard-sized shower doesn't mean I'm going to encourage folks to lollygag about in it.

Solution: don't heat the water (well maybe a little) for guests.

For yourself,those propane powered camp water heaters work and last a surprisingly long time.

http://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-L5-Po.../dp/B000TXOJQ4

http://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-L5-Po...owViewpoints=1

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by WestVanHan

Solution: don't heat the water (well maybe a little) for guests.

For yourself,those propane powered camp water heaters work and last a surprisingly long time.

http://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-L5-Po.../dp/B000TXOJQ4

http://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-L5-Po...owViewpoints=1

I hadn't seen the portable units; thanks for the link.