floatation

[zptaiopdhnfcre]

any info on the requirments for installed floatation ?

i plan to build a hull that is 4` wide & 2 1/2` deep......& 45` loa.

it will be sealed completely ..... no water can reach the inside of the hull.

do i need floatation /?

[Ike]

There are no requirements (by that I mean laws or industry standards) for flotation, for a boat that long. The current requirements stop at 20 feet (the law says less than 20 Feet). So you are not required to install flotation. Do you need it? That depends on the design. the above info doesn't tell us much other than it's going to be a long slim shallow boat. Is this a single hull? Pontoon? canoe? rowing shell? what?

[zptaiopdhnfcre]

this will be a single hull.

[zptaiopdhnfcre]

so there are no u.s.c.g. requirements for floatation of boat hulls over 20` ?

in other words i could build a
`(example)
a rectangle sealed `5x`5x`45 loa.... like a barge and register it in any state without any added floatation inside the sealed hull?

[Ike]

That's correct. I am assuming this is for recreational use. There are separate requirements for commercial vessels.

[SamSam]

Ike, is there any requirements at all for flotation in a homebuilt boat for private use?

[Ike]

Is this a test? LOL

No there is not. But you will come to a lot of grief about it if you ever sell it or try to insure it. And what is the problem anyway? providing for air chambers or some such is easy. The law does not require foam ( a common myth) if that's the objection. Wood boat's do sink (another common myth that wood boats don't sink). Also, I would not want to be in your shoes if there is an accident and you get sued. The plaintiff's attorney would have field day.

[SamSam]

No test , just curious.The statement

There are no requirements (by that I mean laws or industry standards) for flotation, for a boat that long. The current requirements stop at 20 feet (the law says less than 20 Feet). So you are not required to install flotation.

left the impression boats under 20' required flotation that would pass inspection, no matter what the circumstances.

Another fairly useless hypothetical question....Could someone buy a boat that required flotation, such as a new 19' boat from a big national manufacturer, and then rip out all the flotation, and still be legal as far as personal, private use? I assume the answer is yes, a person could do that, even though it doesn't seem like a good idea.

It kind of comes down to how much regulation is there for private, personal use boats. There are regulations like you have to have life jackets, fire extinguishers, etc. but as far as construction of the boat or 'appliances' on the boat, are there restrictions (other than a catchall phrase like being a danger to the public)? As a rough example, say you had a piece of garden hose running from the regulator on your propane tank to the oven. Is there a law that says you can't do that?

[PAR]

Once a boat get's over 20' the idea of installing foam becomes silly, as the displaced volume is sufficiently large enough where you will not have much usable interior left. Air chambers are a more logical option as they can still be used as storage. This assumes a home built , recreational craft.

The hull you've described would have a capacity of about 20,000 pounds of floatation if completely filled with foam. This assumes a reasonable Cp, canoe body form, no deduction for hull shell or buoyancy weights, pushed down to it's deck line. What is the purpose of such a narrow single hull and why the desire to fill it with foam?

[Ike]

left the impression boats under 20' required flotation that would pass inspection, no matter what the circumstances.

He asked if it need flotation. The simple answer, which I gave, is no.

For monohull boats under 20 feet in length, there are specific requirements of the attitude in which the boat must float, and and specific amounts of weight it must support. See Http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/flot.html Some boats are excepted; canoes, kayaks, inflatables, multihulls, etc.

Could someone buy a boat that required flotation, such as a new 19' boat from a big national manufacturer, and then rip out all the flotation, and still be legal as far as personal, private use?

From a Federal Law stand point, yes they could. But there are significant caveats: No way would anyone insure you, and if you had insurance already and an accident occurred, and the insurance company found out that the boat did not meet Federal standards, no way would they pay off on the accident. You would putting yourself in an extreme liability position and at the same time it would also void the warranty on the boat.

The Federal standards for flotation apply to boat manufacturers and importers, and manufacturers of associated equipment, such as engines, tanks, etc. (Which, as an aside, brings up an interesting point. If you buy a boat for your own personal use in another country, such as Canada, and bring it into the US, You are the importer, and it does have to meet all the Federal standards, and it is your responsibility.)

Another Caveat, Some state have passed laws saying the boat has to comply with the standards for labels, meaning the boat hsa to be in compliance with what ever it says on the capacity label, which also usually includes a certification statement that says; the manufacturer certifies that this boat meets the Federal Standards in Effect on the Date of Certification. The Date Of certification is the last four digits in the HIN. this means if complies with all Federal regs that apply to that boat, including flotation, if that boat is required to have it, and will be in compliance for ten years after it was built. A really good prosecutor or law enforcement officer could make an argument, in a state that has such a law, that this means the boat owner has to keep it in compliance. It hasn't ever been tested in court, however owners have been fined for exceeding the capacities on the label, or even not having a label. So it is not a long stretch of the imagination to see some one prosecuted for taking the flotation out, if an accident occurred and someone died because the boat didn't have flotation.

This has happened in civil court, and the plaintiffs have won consistently.

It kind of comes down to how much regulation is there for private, personal use boats. There are regulations like you have to have life jackets, fire extinguishers, etc. but as far as construction of the boat or 'appliances' on the boat, are there restrictions (other than a catchall phrase like being a danger to the public)? As a rough example, say you had a piece of garden hose running from the regulator on your propane tank to the oven. Is there a law that says you can't do that?

Actually there are not a lot of regulations that apply to the owner as far as construction goes. They only two Federal laws that apply to both manufacturers and owners are the requirements for a flame arrester on inboard gasoline engines, and ventilation of engine compartments on gasoline powered boats. They have been around since 1940. All the rest of the laws that apply to boat owners are carriage requirements, such as lifejackets, fire extinguishers, visual distress signals, etc.


Now, none of the above addresses industry standards, which are not laws, but are commonly used in civil and criminal court to show liability and are used by almost all manufacturers in the US. So if you did install a propane system using garden hose, you would not be violating federal law, but you may be violating state or local laws. Propane (LPG) and other natural gas system requirements are contained in ABYC standards, but they are taken almost word for word directly from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) standards. NFPA is the basis for almost all local and state fire regulations and has been adopted by many as a uniform fire code. Also many of the electrical system standards in ABYC are taken directly from the National Electrical Code, much of which has also been adopted by communities and States. So as I said a smart lawyer could make an argument, but whether a court would accept is an open question. And again you would be liable for any accident that occurred, but whether you could be held criminally liable is questionable.

For instance I investigated a fire on a houseboat in a marina in NYC, that was caused by a bad propane installation, and not only burned up the boat but several others and damaged the docks. The fire department levied a whole lot of fines against the marina, and the boat owner. Fortunately no one was injured.

So long answer to a short question. It is a very complex subject. I am not a lawyer, I'm an engineer. From my view it is much simpler to comply than it is to not. It doesn't cost much. It cost about $50 in foam, fiberglass cloth and epoxy to put flotation in my 12 foot rowboat. Less if you skip the glass and resin, maybe $20.00. It cost nothing to put it in my sailing dinghy. It has air chambers. I am currently working on an 18 foot I/O. The flotation would probably run about $50 to $75 and not take a lot of space because it is all under the floor.

PS: Sorry for all the above: I 've had to answer that kind of question so many times over thee last 30 some years that I've had a lot of time to think about it. I can also think of several arguments against it. The first being is the laws says specifically "for the purpose of sale". Well, if you never intend to sell it you can do pretty much what you want.

[zptaiopdhnfcre]

i was refering to a catamaran hull.

[zptaiopdhnfcre]

are the floatation requirements the same for composite boats over & under 20` too?
the same as wooden boats.

[PAR]

Hull shell material choices do not affect the floatation requirements for craft under 20', displacement is displacement, regardless of hull material choices. Simply put, a hull made from your aunt Millie's mashed potato salad, covered in varnished paper mache, needs just as much floatation as a wooden boat, of the same physical dimensions.

It would be wise for you to download the home built boat guide from the USCG. I'm sure Peter has a link. Also check out Peter's site and look up the necessary information (> http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/regs.html < & > http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/33CFR_Flotation.html <)

[Ike]

Thanks PAR; Safety Standards For Backyard boatbuilders

http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/back...atbuilders.pdf

[SamSam]

Thanks for the explanation. Common sense dictates that you do the safe thing for safeties sake and also to avoid the land sharks. This is what I was wondering about, "

The first being is the laws says specifically "for the purpose of sale". Well, if you never intend to sell it you can do pretty much what you want."

But smart lawyer or dumb, it's best to avoid any lawyer.

I've seen an operation making and selling the same unlicensed, un flotated boat for 3 generations with no legal problems, but that is just luck as I'm sure there have been instances where they would be liable.

I think this was gone into also in relation to someone building a personal boat and then wants to sell it and make another or someone else wants them to make one for them. It's not that simple.

As for the OP

it will be sealed completely .....no water can reach the inside of the hull.

do i need floatation /?

If flotation is required, are sealed chambers sufficient?