Eat your heart out men....

[Winingar]

Originally Posted by alan white

Think about it this way---- if properly glued and bolted with one gusset, and then stressed, you'd probably break a frame, not the gusset. So why make the gusset stronger without making the frames stronger?
Quite the boat, Win, should keep you occupied for... um... weeks!

Alan

So are you saying that I have properly built this frame and gusset?

"Weeks".....

My friend, only in my dreams.

[alan white]

Originally Posted by Winingar

So are you saying that I have properly built this frame and gusset?

"Weeks".....

My friend, only in my dreams.

Seems right and proper. What is that--- red oak plywood you're cutting the frames and gussets from or solid wood? I have such a slow connection, seeing the close-ups takes fifteen minutes tonight. What's everything made from?

[PAR]

Gussets in sawn frames are almost always on both sides of the frame. Plywood isn't as strong as solid lumber longitudinally. The general rule is the plywood (best wooden material for them) should be about 1/3 the thickness of the frame and it goes up and down the frame pieces (futtocks) about 3 times it's molded dimension (width of the frame measured from the inside of the planking). If the angle will permit (like in the forward sections) the futtocks (frame pieces) are over lapped and through bolted, which is easier and faster, but not as strong.

It also appears (photos) that you need to be watchful of grain orientation, I see a lot of "run out". If your frames are 1" stock then typically you have two 3/8" plywood gussets. The images also show solid stock used for the gussets. If the plans say plywood, then you should use plywood, again it is the best wooden product you can use for these, though metal is better and takes up a lot less room inside the boat, particularly if "let" into the futtocks.

You appear to be doing a right nice job, keep up the good work. One more tip; ease the edges of the futtocks and gussets that will not be enclosed within a joint. This means little more then a few strokes with some 100 grit on the edges of all the pieces. This simple little trick, will permit what ever finish you use to stick well at the corners, which is the most difficult area for any coating to cling. In fact all edges (all over the boat) should receive this treatment or have another, such as fully rounded, ogee, etc. This only applies to a crisp edge that will remain exposed and get paint, varnish or other coating.

[USCGRET/E8]

Originally Posted by Winingar

After 3 days, this is my progress. Looks like it's going to be a long haul!!! I'm at #6 and have 13 the length of the hull, not counting the stem and transom. One of you guys said whatever the time limit you *think* it's going to be and whatever the $$$ that you *think* it's going to be.........double it. That's truly great advise.

Yes, you may have to grow a new set of patience
Take your time and relax, so you don't burn out before the project is done.
Also, start saving for all the (somewhat expensive) running gear.
Check out these folks for everything you'll need. http://www.glen-l.com/
They have a boat building book that may be a wise investment in lieu of the many different opinions you will get on here.
I like to make a big pic of the finished project and hang it in my shop for inspiration

[Winingar]

Originally Posted by alan white

Seems right and proper. What is that--- red oak plywood you're cutting the frames and gussets from or solid wood? I have such a slow connection, seeing the close-ups takes fifteen minutes tonight. What's everything made from?

The frame is 7/8" White Oak, and the gusset is 3/4" solid stock Red Oak.

The plans don't call for anything specific to the gusset so I used 3/4" solid stock Red oak because I thought it would be stronger, but maybe I should use plywood like Par says. I was thinking that strength would be better with solid stock but if plywood is stronger then perhaps I should go with that instead, also plywood will be a lighter material.

I have only made the gussets for this one particular frame, just so i could get input. I can easily go forward with plywood gussets.

I really didn't consider the weight that would be added by using 3/4" solid stock.

I am finding that I still have to learn alot of the terminology from the plans, but I do in fact understand the material. There hasn't been anything listed that calls for plywood.

Thanks for the input Alan, it's very much appreciated my friend.

[Winingar]

Originally Posted by PAR

Gussets in sawn frames are almost always on both sides of the frame. Plywood isn't as strong as solid lumber longitudinally. The general rule is the plywood (best wooden material for them) should be about 1/3 the thickness of the frame and it goes up and down the frame pieces (futtocks) about 3 times it's molded dimension (width of the frame measured from the inside of the planking). If the angle will permit (like in the forward sections) the futtocks (frame pieces) are over lapped and through bolted, which is easier and faster, but not as strong.

It also appears (photos) that you need to be watchful of grain orientation, I see a lot of "run out". If your frames are 1" stock then typically you have two 3/8" plywood gussets. The images also show solid stock used for the gussets. If the plans say plywood, then you should use plywood, again it is the best wooden product you can use for these, though metal is better and takes up a lot less room inside the boat, particularly if "let" into the futtocks.

.

You will need to help me out here Par. What exactly is "run out"?

Is this when the grain of the wood is not in the right direction for strength?

The plans haven't called for any plywood, but if plywood is in fact stronger, then I should move forward with all plywood on the gussets due to the fact that it would not only be stronger but also much lighter.

This is why I wanted to post the photos so I can go forward using the correct material. I have read the plans carefully and there isn't anywhere that it calls for any kind of plywood. I fully understand that this doesn't mean that plywood isn't a better option.

Thanks for the reply Par, your input is very much appreciated.

[alan white]

Originally Posted by Winingar

The frame is 7/8" White Oak, and the gusset is 3/4" solid stock Red Oak.

The plans don't call for anything specific to the gusset so I used 3/4" solid stock Red oak because I thought it would be stronger, but maybe I should use plywood like Par says. I was thinking that strength would be better with solid stock but if plywood is stronger then perhaps I should go with that instead, also plywood will be a lighter material.

I have only made the gussets for this one particular frame, just so i could get input. I can easily go forward with plywood gussets.

I really didn't consider the weight that would be added by using 3/4" solid stock.

I am finding that I still have to learn alot of the terminology from the plans, but I do in fact understand the material. There hasn't been anything listed that calls for plywood.

Thanks for the input Alan, it's very much appreciated my friend.

Some frame-sets are shallower-angled, which favors solid wood gussets (at the extreme, the gusset is almost like a double-sawn frame. The place for ply gussets (lacking grown gussets, which would be ideal) is where the angle is closer to square. It may be you would combine the two gussets in the same boat.
My rule of thumb would be, more open angles (usually found forward), use solid gussets, and further aft, where angles are more closed, use ply.
The depth of the gussets can be determined, by maintaining the same measurements along the two outer gusset edges for each gusset, though I'm sure you have this specified.
The point PAR brought up about double ply gussets makes sense---- to my mind because of twist under stress being eliminated, which makes all fastener loads shear loads. Counting against doubles is the propensity for such details to make crevices that invite rot. Epoxy well the aft gussets, which will no doubt be plywood. Also consider completely filling the gap between the frame-ends with thickened epoxy, which will keep water from sitting in the gap.
In a way, at this point a builder could go two seperate ways. Traditional (meaning solid white oak gussets and solid white oak frames with or without glue, but with emphasis on limber-gaps and holes and hefty fasteners), or, the other way, epoxy methods, which count more on encapsulation than on wood species, and which also favors plywood. Your wood quality and grain choices become far more critical with the old methods, so I'm assuming it all gets encapsulated.

Alan

[Winingar]

Thanks Alan.

What about the chines? My build calls for 2x2" chines. The length is 25' so can I seem the chine on the frame, or do I need to have continuous chines from bow to stern?

[alan white]

Good question. Take two 13 -14 ft pieces side by side, clamped, and angle the two pieces for a scarf about 15" long. You can skilsaw the angles pretty close first, then power-plane the two together, flip, glue, screw, and it will be 25 ft long. The epoxy glue makes this as strong as a single piece, the screws not really necessary unless it's white oak.
You will be doing a lot of scarfing, best to set up a jig and get used to making long boards out of short ones.
White oak should be cleaned well with acetone if glued with epoxy, and a few screws won't hurt. All this will go a long ways to prevent hard spots in the long curves (chines, sheer clamps, keelson, etc.).

A.

[Winingar]

Thanks Alan.

Hope you don't start charging a fee per question....

[Winingar]

Originally Posted by PAR

Gussets in sawn frames are almost always on both sides of the frame. .

You sir are indeed correct. (not that I even doubted you) After reading through the notes *completely* tonight, it says just as you said, that in fact the frames need to have plywood gussets on both sides with a filler piece in between, and then bolted or screwed with galvanized screws or bolts.

And I get on to my kids for not paying attention.....

Well, now that I'm on track I will see If I can manage to get through all the framework.

Thanks again to you Par and Alan for your input.

[PAR]

Gussets don't usually trap moisture against the futtocks, except in the flatter aft sections of the boat, where a filler piece is used to prevent this. Some don't bother with the filler and just drill weeps in the gussets. A typical weep should be the same diameter as the futtock is sided, but no smaller then 3/4". Your 7/8" sided futtocks should have 7/8" (or bigger) weep holes, which will let any collecting moisture out. Filler pieces are a better, if more bothersome method.

The double gusset, stabilizes the futtocks, also provides much more bearing and gluing surface. Generally, they are cut just shy of the outboard edge of the completed frame assembly, so they don't contact the planking. An 1/8" will do and permit air circulation.

When using sawn frames, all effort must be taken to insure the grain runs with the sweep of the futtock being cut. This does produce a fair amount of waste, but is a necessary evil for strength. Any compressive, bending or torsional loading (very common in powerboats) on a frame assembly that has excessive run out will cause that area to open, check, split or even break. This is the reason steam bent frames are so much stronger then sawn, the grain runs with the sweep of the curves in the frame. Match up futtock pieces with stock that has a similar grain sweep. It's a pain in the futtock (I couldn't help myself) but will produce a stronger, more trouble free boat. I've bounced off of waves with enough force to break frames (it's surprisingly easy and fun at times). Making them weaker by not paying attention to the grain will just cause headaches later.

Winingar, you seem to have deviated from the plans already, likely unintentionally, so you'll be forgiven this time. It is very unwise to make arbitrary alterations to the plans, without considerable knowledge of the forces involved. I mention this because you're using red oak (we'll skip the solid stock in the first gussets thingie) and I wouldn't think they would have specified this particular species of oak. This choice will make the framing lighter, weaker and much more prone to rot. The weight issue can toss of the balance of the yacht, the strength issue can compromise the integrity of the structure and the rot thing should be understandable.

Red oak is the weak knee, red headed step cousin to white oak. White oak is the second best framing material you can use. Live oak is hands down the best and quite common in the midwest and south. Red oak is lighter and not nearly as strong as white. More importantly, it rots at the mere mentioning of moisture (trust me). Other then interior trim, it has little use on a boat like yours. I've used red oak successfully only on deadwood assemblies, in vessels that will be continuously moored or berthed in salt water. In this regard, it will serve well (no rot in salt water, but worms love it). Even embalmed in epoxy it is subject to questioning. Your boat doesn't even need epoxy, or at least very little (used as an adhesive only). Do the plans call for red oak? Epoxy?

[alan white]

Originally Posted by Winingar

Thanks Alan.

Hope you don't start charging a fee per question....

Charge a fee for questions? That is an excellent question. Actually, it is more than one question. You are asking if I charge, and further, if I charge based on individual questions. That's two questions. If you are now wondering if it IS two questions, that makes three questions.
Wha...? you say?
Is that another question?

The answer is yes, decidedly so.