Do Not Glass The Bottom Of An Old Wooden Boat Ever!!!!

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by The copper guy

Sorry hoytedow.
My wording is a bit strong but i see it as a yes or no thing.

DONT KNOW?

Well, there's your problem. It isn't that simple....

[waikikin]

Originally Posted by berny1066

Now i am very worried about this 5 years stuff no one told me?????

Hi Berny, during my apprenticeship 25-30 years or so ago, I was involved in glassing a number of carvel 40' Navy workboats, it wasn't pleasant work but those boats are still around, I see them every day almost. The preparation was good on the jobs, worn out holey copper was removed, the timber sarface abraded well & a Ciba Geigy epoxy resin was used in conjunction with powder bound mat(600gram x 2-3), the sheathing was taken 4-6 inches above the wl & edge capped with segmental metal. I wouldn't say theres never been a problem with glass sheathing, & it can make later repairs harder but those boats are still with us & command good $. All the best with your vessel from Jeff.

[Ike]

The pollm definitely needed more options. I am surprised PAR has entered the discussion. I am not fan of glassing over wood on old boats, but there are exceptions. On a new boat, if done carefully and correctly it can be a good thing. So the answer is not yes or no. A good suvey should tell you if there are problems.

[Boston]

when I was a kid if it had glass on it we didn't touch it

Old Robby was not a fan

but from what I've gatthered its a way to eek out a few more years although they be the last years of a wooden hull

from a preservation point of view its a disaster

from a buisiness owner trying to squeeze a few more years out of a boat point of view its an economic short term fix

from the point of view of a potential owner its a great way to not know what your getting into

from the point of view of a long term owner its a big mistake

[The copper guy]

Originally Posted by Hunter25

You are stating with your poll that there is a definitive yes or no answer, which there is not. Many old wooden boats have been fiberglassed and continued in service. This is in direct contradiction to your certain death comments.
...This leads one to understand your experience may be with old worn out carvel plank on frame jobs. These do not do well with fiberglass coverings, but this is not exclusively correct. Most wooden boats die from several reasons the biggest one being extended owner neglect, not fiberglass coatings.
...This neglect causes the fasteners to loosen in their holes, further weakening their grip on a neighboring part it's attached to. The assembly of loose pieces eventually wears out their fastener holes to the point things fall off or rot and water get in. Fastener holes rot, fasteners become loose, the ends of frames, floors, and other stuff start to split and rot. The decay is rapid, I have seen it first hand and watched a pro show the progress and amount of decay in my old wooden boat with over just a year of neglect.
...My boat guy says neglect is what a wooden boat can tolerate the least. His yard is full of other peoples wooden boats.

FIRST LET ME MAKE CLEAR.
NEW CONSTRUCTION IS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE AND INDEED AN IMPROVEMENT!!
I APPLAUD THE DEVELOPMENT OF NEW COMPOSITE BUILDING METHODS AND LOVE
BOTH THE STRIP BUILDING AND COLD MOLDED VESSELS BEING BUILT TODAY THEY ARE SUPERIOR TO OLDER METHODS IN EVERY WAY. (GLASS WILL STICK TO NEW WOOD) This is in noway part of the discussion!!!

There are many reasons why people want to glass there old boat and that is there
decision to make. (IT IS THERE BOAT)

THE PROBLEM IS: They are often misinformed by well meaning guys, Who are also
misinformed, The boating magazines remain MUTE on the subject as many of there readers are new to boating or have limited experience. (AND THEY JUST SELL MAGAZINES AFTER ALL) Even WOODEN BOAT MAGAZINE DOSE NOT DISCOURAGE THE PRACTISE? It turns out a lot of there subscribers have one? so much for what looks like a tradishional boat builders RAG! I have asked them to publish something on the subject but to date i have had no reply.

OK You want more choices, IT IS OK IF: YOU WANT TO DO IT TO YOUR BOAT FOR WHATEVER REASON!!!! IN THE FULL KNOWLEDGE THAT IT HAS ITS LIMITATIONS?

BUT YOU CANNOT IN ALL GOOD FAITH SELL IT OR ALLOW IT TO BE SOLD TO SOME INNOCENT WHO SKIPPED THE SURVEYORS REPORT IN THE BELIEF THAT ITS GLASSED OVER WHAT CAN GO WRONG???????
Fortunately very few will ever go anywhere with it BUT WHAT IF THEY DID??????
As a long time cruiser often in wooden boats, I have never met anyone traveling any distance in one of these death traps,
Is that because no one actually sailed of into the sunset on one or because they were never seen again?????
There are only a limited number of people qualified to answer the question? But it is there duty to speak out, If this was your son and his family buying somone elses
abortion don who knows why? or when? wood any experienced sailor allow them
to go to sea?


THE QUESTION IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN IS IT ALRIGHT TO SELL IT ON . YES/OR NO

[Boston]

the real question is
what is the chances of a catastrophic failure in a glass sheathed boat vs a non glass sheathed boat

[The copper guy]

Originally Posted by Boston

the real question is
what is the chances of a catastrophic failure in a glass sheathed boat vs a non glass sheathed boat

IT IS JUST A MATER OF INFORMING PEOPLE??????

[The copper guy]

I can only say again, This is a very shoddy practice and only good for the guy doing it. Plus if he knows what he is doing and dos it (((?PROPERLY?))) THEN HE MUST KNOW ALL THAT CAN GO WRONG WITH IT.

A DISCUSSION LIKE THIS AT LEAST GETS THE SUBJECT OUT THERE! Though it is interesting to see that the initial response to the subject was one of derision and anger, My wording of the poll was intended to get a response because without a response there is no discussion.

PLEASE KEEP POSTING YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE SUBJECT FOR OR AGAINST AND LET NEW GUYS HAVE SOMETHING TO PONDER? EVERYTHING ABOUT A BOAT IS A COMPROMISE!!!!!!

[The copper guy]

Originally Posted by waikikin

Hi Berny, during my apprenticeship 25-30 years or so ago, I was involved in glassing a number of carvel 40' Navy workboats, it wasn't pleasant work but those boats are still around, I see them every day almost. The preparation was good on the jobs, worn out holey copper was removed, the timber sarface abraded well & a Ciba Geigy epoxy resin was used in conjunction with powder bound mat(600gram x 2-3), the sheathing was taken 4-6 inches above the wl & edge capped with segmental metal. I wouldn't say there's never been a problem with glass sheathing, & it can make later repairs harder but those boats are still with us & command good $. All the best with your vessel from Jeff.

This parshall glassing of just the bottom is something i had not considered before?
It will work well in shallow drafted vessels if it is applied properly and no attempt is made to substitute hard epoxy putty for cocking it must be spline"d, The keel will have to be removed then reattached as a separate entity,
This use of sheathing is acceptable as it still allows the boat to breath and some salt to get into the bilge, JUST LIKE WARING WELLIES,

[Landlubber]

The Copper Guy....

now I disagree entirely with one of your opinions......"and some salt to get into the bilge,".....ANY water in the bilge of a boat is detrimental to the life of the boat...salt water or fresh water, it all evaporates into humidity, and humidity and fungus are best mates. Dry salt attracts moisture, more problems.

A wooden boat should be a dry boat, without exceptions...even put a drip tray under the conventional packing to achieve this if need be.....

THIS I AM VERY SURE ABOUT (seeing as you like to emphasise things)....

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by The copper guy

I can only say again, This is a very shoddy practice and only good for the guy doing it. Plus if he knows what he is doing and dos it (((?PROPERLY?))) THEN HE MUST KNOW ALL THAT CAN GO WRONG WITH IT.

A DISCUSSION LIKE THIS AT LEAST GETS THE SUBJECT OUT THERE! Though it is interesting to see that the initial response to the subject was one of derision and anger, My wording of the poll was intended to get a response because without a response there is no discussion.

PLEASE KEEP POSTING YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE SUBJECT FOR OR AGAINST AND LET NEW GUYS HAVE SOMETHING TO PONDER? EVERYTHING ABOUT A BOAT IS A COMPROMISE!!!!!!

Derision and anger? I saw plenty of derision, but no anger. The derision was because you're insisting on one of two extreme views, with nothing in between. That's like asking people their opinion of recreational drugs: should they be handed out in schools, or should anyone caught possessing them immediately be hanged from the nearest lamp post? Most reasonable people have views somewhere in between....

Or, more to the point, it's like asking, "should you re-roof a house over the existing shingles? Is it the best thing for the house, or is it certain disaster?" Depends on the house, the condition of the roof sheathing under the existing roofing, the condition of the existing roofing, how many layers are already there and what kind they are, what kind of new roofing you're using and how you're applying it, so on and so forth.

[hoytedow]

The lesson in this thread, I think, is that a planked hull that is in such bad shape it had to be glassed over is in too bad a state of deterioration to ever consider buying, and to sell one in that condition would be immoral to the point of being homicidal. At the very best, the person who glassed it over would be the only one really aware of its limitations and would have the best chance of surviving its use in that condition. In short, STAY AWAY from glassed over carvel-planked hulls.

Do you agree?

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by hoytedow

The lesson in this thread, I think, is that a planked hull that is in such bad shape it had to be glassed over is in too bad a state of deterioration to ever consider buying, and to sell one in that condition would be immoral to the point of being homicidal. At the very best, the person who glassed it over would be the only one really aware of its limitations and would have the best chance of surviving its use in that condition. In short, STAY AWAY from glassed over carvel-planked hulls.

Do you agree?

I don't necessarily agree one hundred percent. The fact that someone glassed over a hull doesn't always mean they did so because the hull was so deteriorated they had no choice. They may simply have chosen to do so.

Covering Wooden Boats With Fiberglass by Allan Vaitses has been around since 1981, and sales of it are still going strong. A lot of people have followed his advice.

I do agree it runs up a caution flag. And if someone did it as a last-ditch, desperate maneuver to keep the boat afloat, you probably don't want it...

[Boston]

It just doesnt seem like a great idea

You instantly cant get to the fasteners of the planking to do a decent inspection and you cant replace planking in the future
Also wood likes to breath and encasing it in big plastic bag ( basically what your doing when you glass a boat like this ) you're just begging for rot

[Hunter25]

Some need to get a better grip on the techniques and methods used in wooden construction. The inner layer of a double planked boat has fasteners that are just as difficult to get at as a fiberglass over carvel. What about the fasteners used in molded hulls that may be several layers thick, some are removed but they don't have to be. What about veneers over strip plank or just the edge fasteners in the strip plank. Each case has to be judged on its merits and not reside under blanket statements that show a lack of insight to known techniques and proven practices. In this column it appears that Copper Guy has joined the forum a couple of weeks ago and has been attempting to show how much he actually doesn't know. There are a lot of professionals and industry insiders here Copper Guy. Maybe hanging out and paying attention would be the better course to earning their respect, instead of telling them what they all ready know or speaking about things that you have less then a full understanding of.