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  #31  
Old 06-18-2006, 02:00 PM
JohnBloch JohnBloch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baronvonrort
John
I dont mean to offend you but i think it would be a waste of time and money trying to build your design.

Can i suggest you contact someone in the "moth" class in Australia and see if someone has plans for an older scow type which you might pick up very cheaply or even for free.

The older scow moths are very easy and and pretty cheap to build from plywood.You could probably get a good second hand sail cheap as well.

You can roof rack it and it would be a lot more fun to sail.

www.moth.asn.au

cool.. Im not building my own design anymore...

Did you see what i just posted?

with the pictures of the "el toro"?

I was told free plans arent worth it because the designs are outdated...

That, and I think 30 dollars for a set of plans is worth more than the time of trying to contact and mail/scan plans from someone half a world away from me...

and what would the moth be more fun to sail than? my origonal design? the El Toro? im a bit confused...

ps. If i dont get full size plans, Im going to take my time In transfering...

measure more than twice, and cut once...

to be honest, I dont think it will be that hard for me to transfer plans to a full size stencil or streight to the plywood...


does everyone lack faith? or is it really that hard to transfer a drawing that should have the measurements printed on them?

Because if its that hard, I may as well not even try it... and just not build one...
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  #32  
Old 06-18-2006, 10:16 PM
Baronvonrort Baronvonrort is offline
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John
I did see the photos and they appeared just after i posted my last post.

I agree with the post about most of the free plans as a lot of them are pretty old but that said there probably are a handfull of designs that are still good.

You might find the moth guys would be very helpfull with some plans and yes the scow type is outdated compared to the new ones on hydrofoils yet some still consider it a very good design and it is so much easier to sail than the newer ones.It would be easily twice as fast as anything you have posted pictures of.I think for cost and labour to build vs performance in the 10-12 ft range makes the scow moth pretty hard to beat.

The size of the boat you are looking to build is just about perfect for a first boat which gives a far better chance of completing it.

If you take pride in your workmanship and double check all measurements you should be able to do it.A lot of fathers have built scow moths and other wooden boats for their kids at home and those other boats you have posted look easy to build.
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  #33  
Old 06-19-2006, 01:30 AM
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frosh frosh is offline
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Hi John, the difference between what you designed and the El Toro performance wise is not that great, (El Toro will be better), but both of these will be a lot slower than a Moth which is a planing boat which the other(s) are not. The El Toro is essentially a tender to a cruiser or a junior racing boat meaning up to about 14 years old. If you are OK with that then go for it. It will be easy and cheap to build, go slowly, but you will learn sailing basics. If you don't mind outgrowing it pretty soon and wanting something bigger and faster that will plane, then fine!
My idea for you was to go for something in between in sail size and performance between the El Toro and the Moth as your first effort. You will then not tire of it so quickly, and it will also allow a bit of mucking about on the water with a friend if you want. I found a nice 11 footer, no more difficult to build than El Toro and a lot easier than any Moth for $35 for plans.
http://www.boatplans-online.com/prod....php?prod=SD11
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  #34  
Old 06-19-2006, 11:05 AM
byankee byankee is offline
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There are a lot of designs out there that fit your need that also look a heck of a lot better than the El Toro. These plans are not too expensive and are worth considering:

http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=V10

From Karl Stambaugh/Chesepeake Marine Designs. I love Karl's boats - traditional in appearance, but modern materials and methods

http://www.cmdboats.com/wdk.htm?cart...9469bd0d95a85a

http://www.cmdboats.com/seal.htm?car...9469bd0d95a85a

http://www.cmdboats.com/bayskiff.htm...9469bd0d95a85a (this one's a 12 footer, but it is lovely to look at so I thought I'd throw it in)

I'm surprised no one has referred you to Phil Bolger's designs. Here are a couple:

Teal - http://www.instantboats.com/teal.htm (another 12 footer but a very popular/proven design)

Cartopper - http://www.instantboats.com/cartopper.htm (11 footer - again a popular and proven design that's easy to build)

Or Jim Michalak (a bit of an aquired taste, perhaps, but he's got good reasoning behind his designs. The use of leeboards frees up interior space in the boat - something to serioulsy consider in such a small craft):

Mixer - http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mixer/index.htm I thought this quote from the description of the boat is worth noting:
"So here is a cartopper with capacity for two adults or for camping one adult with a flat floor large enough to sleep on and lots of dry storage."

Piccup Pram - http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/ji...pram/index.htm

Edited to add:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBloch
to be honest, I dont think it will be that hard for me to transfer plans to a full size stencil or streight to the plywood...

does everyone lack faith? or is it really that hard to transfer a drawing that should have the measurements printed on them?

Because if its that hard, I may as well not even try it... and just not build one...
No, it's NOT hard to transfer the measurements to your building materials, especially for the designs we're talking about AS LONG AS you understand basic boat builidng terminology and (for some designs) what a "table of offsets" is/means. Boat plans are not like furniture plans where every piece is drawn out with exact dimensions. Becasue of all of the curves involved, it is difficult to render a 3 dimensional hull form on a two dimensional surface (i.e. paper). Fortunately, stitch and glue boatbuilding is very forgiving of minor errors, so it is a good method for first time builders. All of the plans I listed above (and the design listed by frosh ) are supposed to be easily buildable by beginners. Some are more "idiot proof" than others (i.e. they have more information on them or include full size patterns, while others may not have the full size patterns and you may have to deal with a table of offsets), but with a little reading/research first, you'll be able to build any of them.

What IS difficult is learning how to design a good boat from scratch. There's a lot of "art" in it as well as a bunch of "science". It's difficult to learn the former even if you know all about the latter.
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  #35  
Old 06-19-2006, 06:32 PM
JohnBloch JohnBloch is offline
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byankee....

Which of those designs do you think you could get the most speed with? would any of them "self plane" like the moth?

Baronvonrort...

Will the moth be loads harder to build than the designs byankee posted?

also, Do you know directly of anyone I could e-mail that would have a design like the one you posted available for me?

I pretty much weighed it out, and if im going to put this much time into a boat, it should be pretty quick... and something I wont grow out of soon...

but I dont know where to look for old moth designs and or who to ask...

and if any of those plans that byankee posted would be anywhere as quick, I would rather go with one of them rather than work really hard to get a design from someone...

thanks for all the input guys....
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  #36  
Old 06-19-2006, 10:23 PM
Baronvonrort Baronvonrort is offline
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John
I have had a quick look at the other designs posted byankee and frosh and the moth will be considerably faster than all of them.

The other boats posted are possibly the easiest boats to build from wood that i have seen.The Moth would be harder to build than these but not that much harder and when the scow moths were racing most of them were homebuilt.

I will see what i can do about getting some plans for you but it may take a couple of days.

Do you want me to enquire about a good second hand sail to help keep costs down?

The exchange rate favours you in America and when i had a holiday in the USA last year $100 Australian gave me $68 US.
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  #37  
Old 06-19-2006, 10:29 PM
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lewisboats lewisboats is online now
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http://sailing.about.com/gi/dynamic/...rp%2Ftbear.htm

Old 10 ft JR Moth plans

And here is Gibbens 12 footer.

http://sailing.about.com/gi/dynamic/...w%2Fscow30.htm


Steve
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  #38  
Old 06-20-2006, 05:28 AM
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frosh frosh is offline
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Hi John, I have looking over the net for you for more designs/plans but nothing much better has come up that has already been posted.
The obvious difference between these and the scow Moth is that the Moth hull is built light and has a taller mast and more sail area. Also the Moth is an early planing boat and this translates to a more twitchy boat to sail but much more fun. If you have not done much dinghy sailing it will mean a few capsizes at first but it is not too difficult to master.
But the Moth hull will be much more fragile than the old designs that weigh more, so it needs more care when using it. I can't find a proper set of plans on the net for a Moth so lets see if Baronvonrort can come up with something good. I did build a Cole double chine Moth in the late 60's and it was quite a demanding project for my third boat.
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  #39  
Old 06-20-2006, 09:23 AM
JohnBloch JohnBloch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baronvonrort
John
I have had a quick look at the other designs posted byankee and frosh and the moth will be considerably faster than all of them.

The other boats posted are possibly the easiest boats to build from wood that i have seen.The Moth would be harder to build than these but not that much harder and when the scow moths were racing most of them were homebuilt.

I will see what i can do about getting some plans for you but it may take a couple of days.

Do you want me to enquire about a good second hand sail to help keep costs down?

The exchange rate favours you in America and when i had a holiday in the USA last year $100 Australian gave me $68 US.
Dangit... I swear I posted a reply to this earlyer....

You could Inquire about a sail, but im not sure if I'll buy one... especially from overseas...

waht do you think about the moth JR?

to short? to old?
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  #40  
Old 06-20-2006, 09:32 AM
erkanyilmaz erkanyilmaz is offline
 
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hello

I'm calling from the Ceyhan-Turkey/

I'm 41 years old.
I'm a weld inspector and I get certificated from the TUV, Aliminyoum, steel and carbon Steel. I've been worked so many project all over the world like as the Pipe line, Pover Plant, and petroil chemical constructions for along time.

And I get a small warehouse 200 mt2 in the field. and field is around 10.000 mt2, near the midreanen Sea only 20 Km far away.
If you think to manifacture to own boat I can help you for the construction place, afortable workers with certificat. and I can prepare all licance from the goverment. and you can manage that all works with only me and one Supervisor.

I don't want too much thing all my help because I've been fall in love with Sea and boats since when I was 6 years old.

I hope you can understand me by my bad and basic english.

Contact topalogluerkant@yahoo.de
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  #41  
Old 06-20-2006, 09:49 AM
byankee byankee is offline
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John -

I think you have to figure out what you really want in a boat before you go any further. Looking back over this entire thread, I see that your criteria have changes a few times, and now I'm uncertain as to what you really want. First, you asked about a "quick and stable little boat for two" in the 9 foot range. Then it was a design about 7' long for 1 person. Then you asked about links for something about 9' long for 1 person. Now you're considering a Moth, which is a very different type of boat than what you had originally envisioned.

I'm not being critical. It would just be easier for everyone - yourself included - if you could set some parameters. At the very least, you need to consider the following things:

1) What kind of sailing do you want to do - go fast, which generally equals wet, uncomfortable and unstable, or are you willing to sacrifice some speed for a drier, stable and more comfortable ride?

2) Do you want to be able to take a friend along with you or are you going solo?

3) Will you trailer the boat, cartop it, or leave it at a dock?

4) What about storage for the boat? Do you have limited space?

5) Construction method - all of the boats under consideration are plywood, mostly stitch and glue. Is that your preferred building method or would you consider another method such a strip planking?

6) What is the maxiumum length you will consider? In general, the longer the boat, the faster it will go. Also, if you want to take a passenger, you'll have to have a boat big enough to do so.

7) What are your woodworking skills? Beginner? Competent amateur? Pro?

8) Where are you going to sail - pond, large lake, sheltered bay, open ocean? What are the typical wave and weather conditions where you will sail most often?

I think that if you answer these questions, you'll be in a better position to be able to judge if a design really fits your needs/desires.

For example, if your top priority is speed and you're not concerned about getting wet, are not turned off by the idea of capsizing occasionally and being somewhat uncomfortable and you never want to bring a passenger along, the Moth may be the boat for you. (But if you're REALLY interested in going fast above everything else, you should consider a catamaran (yes, there are plans available for cats) because no mono hull boat will go as fast as a cat)

OTOH, if you want to have decent speed performance with stability, reasonble comfort and the ability to take along a passenger, you don't want the Moth.

One last thing to consider is how much time it takes to rig the boat for sailing if you're trailiering or cartopping the boat. For example, the Karl Stambaugh designs are rigged very quickly - drop in the mast with the sail wrapped around it, rig the sprit intio the snotter, throw on the rudder and you're ready to go. Any racing boat like the Moth or the El Toro, is going have a lot more ropes to deal with, side stays to rig and other stuff to deal with. If you've only got an hour or two to sail, do you want to spend 20 - 30 min of that time rigging the boat and another 20 - 30 min unrigging it when you're done sailing?

A simple to rig boat like the Bay Skiff 12 or the Jimmy Skiff makes it possible and reasonable to go for a sail when you've only got an hour or so, whereas a boat like the Moth that takes longer to rig and unrig wouldn't be suited for this kind of scenario.

Well, I've said more than enough. I'll shut up now.
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  #42  
Old 06-20-2006, 04:34 PM
JohnBloch JohnBloch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byankee
1) What kind of sailing do you want to do - go fast, which generally equals wet, uncomfortable and unstable, or are you willing to sacrifice some speed for a drier, stable and more comfortable ride?
In the middle... I would prefer fast but pretty stable... Im not saying i want something that will stay up in any circumstance, but something that is not as apt to fall tip when you glance away....

Quote:
Originally Posted by byankee
2) Do you want to be able to take a friend along with you or are you going solo?
yeah... a craft that can be taken out alone, but would have room for two...

Quote:
Originally Posted by byankee
3) Will you trailer the boat, cartop it, or leave it at a dock?

Well, in the begining I was thinking cartoping it... but now that the boat seems to be getting bigger (and my car is a civic hatchback... not the biggest of cars) Im leaning more to the side of trailoring it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by byankee
4) What about storage for the boat? Do you have limited space?
Belive me, I have Wet and dry space... my father owns the Service portion of two local marinas.... which could get me either... but dryspace is an abundance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by byankee
5) Construction method - all of the boats under consideration are plywood, mostly stitch and glue. Is that your preferred building method or would you consider another method such a strip planking?
Plywood.. stitch and glue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by byankee
6) What is the maxiumum length you will consider? In general, the longer the boat, the faster it will go. Also, if you want to take a passenger, you'll have to have a boat big enough to do so.
a 12 footer... but I would prefer something in the 10 to 12 foot range....

Quote:
Originally Posted by byankee
7) What are your woodworking skills? Beginner? Competent amateur? Pro?
Erm... I dont know... I think im compatent enough to be put above a beginner... but not to high over the beginner mark...

Quote:
Originally Posted by byankee
8) Where are you going to sail - pond, large lake, sheltered bay, open ocean? What are the typical wave and weather conditions where you will sail most often?
There is an abundance of places for me to sail actually... like i said, marina on the Mississippi rive ... lakes surrounding that area, and a lake a bit closer to home, which is supposed to be about 41 acres...

typical wave conditions at the river can be quite harsh... but im not planning on taking it out on a saturday afternoon... I was planning to sail in the morning (not to early but still kind of) before the motorists get out with their wave producing machienery...



Quote:
Originally Posted by byankee
One last thing to consider is how much time it takes to rig the boat for sailing if you're trailiering or cartopping the boat. For example, the Karl Stambaugh designs are rigged very quickly - drop in the mast with the sail wrapped around it, rig the sprit intio the snotter, throw on the rudder and you're ready to go. Any racing boat like the Moth or the El Toro, is going have a lot more ropes to deal with, side stays to rig and other stuff to deal with. If you've only got an hour or two to sail, do you want to spend 20 - 30 min of that time rigging the boat and another 20 - 30 min unrigging it when you're done sailing?
Something that can be over in 20 minutes easily.... doesnt have to be extremely quick, but not 30 minutes either way...



One thing to add.... Designs that would have enough room on the transom for a motor, be it an electric trolling motor to a 2 or 3 horsepower motor, would be good as well...

Im glad you asked these questions actually... I think this will help my situation alot...
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  #43  
Old 06-21-2006, 12:41 AM
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frosh frosh is offline
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Defining the design?

Hi John, so glad that byankee asked all those questions and you have answered them clearly, as now we can get down to business.
Firstly, forget the Moth, you want an open skiff type design, preferably stitch and glue construction. It will be suitable for a very small outboard also. Remember that if you see a hull and rig pictured on the net, it is not too hard to replace say a low performance lug rig with a modern sloop or cat rig with big head fully battened mainsail to dramatically improve speed.
A rig with unstayed mast is much quicker to rig and unrig.
About 11 to 12 ft. in length can be easily managed in the water by one person, but will have enough room for two and still sail well. You might consider sailing with mainsail only when alone, and adding a jib if you take a passenger.
Some of the designs already posted by myself and others on this thread are worth looking at again. Best of luck with your choice.
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  #44  
Old 06-21-2006, 05:58 PM
JohnBloch JohnBloch is offline
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http://www.cmdboats.com/bayskiff.htm...9469bd0d95a85a

http://www.instantboats.com/teal.htm

looks like its a tie up...

I really like the CMD 12 footer... but the teal just looks so easy to build...

help me out here?

edit: actually Im pretty sure I want to do the Bay Skiff (or first link)

50 dollars for non-full sized plans is alot.. but to me, the design looks nicest... quite simple... and it has a transom... as opposed to the teal...

tips?
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  #45  
Old 06-21-2006, 11:19 PM
byankee byankee is offline
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Well, I might as well chime in here, for whatever it's worth....

A couple of points to consider (and please remember that I'm no expert. These are only my opinions and are worth exactly what you have paid for them):

1) Neither boat is really suited for an outboard motor (one of your items on your "wish list') - the hull shapes are wrong. However (and this is mere speculation on my part), the CMD design might be more tolerant of a very light motor (i.e. an electric trolling motor) simply because of the fact that it is wider at the rear end then the Teal. I doubt Karl Stambaugh would be enthusiastic about the idea, but you could ask him. He's always been very responsive to my stupid questions over the years. Email him through the CMD web site

2) That being said, the CMD design will row very well. You may find that rowing a properly designed skiff with a proper set of oars is not as horrible as you imagine. Karl S. certianly knows a thing or two about skiff design (he wrote an excellent book on the subject). I have no idea how the Teal will be under oars, but judging from the hull shape I'd guess it would be OK with one person aboard , but not so good with two. I may be wrong though - any Teal owners out there???

3) I have the plans for the CMD 15 foot Sailing Skiff and I can say that the plans are very complete and the boat looks very easy to build. The 12 footer should be even easier given that it is a stitch and glue design whereas the 15 footer is a "glue and screw" design. In his skiff book, Stambaugh has an illustrated step by step build of his weekend skiff - a similar but slightly smaller stitch and glue boat that is simple enough for a 12 year old to build. I don't expect that the bay skiff would be much more difficult. Bolger's boats are meant for amateur construction and they're easy to build. The Teal will probably go together a little quicker, but I doubt that there would be a significant difference. The CMD boat has a solid wood sheerstrake (optional I think - at least it is on the Sailing Skiff 15) that will require a bit of work with a hand plane to fit, but that's not too difficult a task.

4) The CMD skiff may cost a bit more for materials. Bolger specifies AC exterior plywood while the CMD boat specifies marine ply - Stambaugh recommends Meranti ply as a good compromise between cost and quality - although you could use ACX. The thing is that to me - and this is my subjective, biased opinion - the CMD boat is such a sweet design that it's worth using decent materials on it. The finished boat is going to really feel and look like a fine old skiff whereas the Bolger boat is going to look and feel more utilitarian and, well, cheaper. (Again, this is only my opinion. Folks that have Bolger boats seem to love them and think that they're the best thing since sliced bread.) It's like the difference between a ford escort and a lexus - they're both cars, but one is more refined than the other.

4) Bottom line - both appear to be "doable" for a complete novice. I'd say go with the one that pleases you the most aesthetically. You're going to live with the thing for a while, so it ought to be something that pleases you to look at and be around as well as fill your functional and practical needs.
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