Carnal sin? Fiberglassing a wooden boat

[Smartbomb]

I'm contemplating the purchase/rehab of a classic 60's wooden motoryacht. I'm not interested in a historic restoration/preservation, just a spruce up to bring it up to date. It's been pulled and dried out. The timbers and planking is all in good shape with the exception of a little rot in the transom that I can easily fix.

I'm having a bear of a time finding insurance and anchorage for older wooden yachts - all the places around me don't want anything to do with them. I'm also considering long term taking it down to the Carribean, where I'm told the worms will eat it to the bone in a heartbeat.

If I buy this one, I'd fiberglass the hull, but everyone I've talked to has said it's a horrible idea. Then again, the guy who bought my first wooden boat from me (a 30' 1950 Jonesporter) fiberglassed the hull and he still uses it to pull traps off Christmas Cove in Maine.

Any thoughts up or down? I could get a newer fiberglass boat but I really like the classic lines and frankly I hate the aesthetic of the new boats. I don't want to drive a floating Ford Taurus!

Thanks

[timgoz]

Several years ago while passing through Newfoundland I sought out a boat I had heard was for sale. She was a beautiful 48 foot wooden ex-fisheries patrol craft.

A local man had glassed it over for the owner. The results were not good. Of the pilothouse, foc'sle, engineroom, galley, & aft cabin only one did not have overhead leaks. The boat had become a miosture trap. The diesel tanks were shot, as were many corrosive fittings & equipment.

He would leave her ice-in because he was afraid to hoist her.

When applied in an attempt to get extra life out of a boat, glassing can be expensive in terms of funds & labor, and yield much less than expected, over any length of time.

Be careful- there is usually a REASON(s) when a large boat is for sale at a comparitively low price.

But as your friend shows with your old 30 footer, results vary.

How long did he dry her & how long since glassing has she been put to use?

Take care.

TGoz

[Smartbomb]

I wouldn't say that the price of this particular boat is very low, but given the condition it's in (which is pretty good), a moderate investment would bring it to a high five figure and possibly a low six figure resale value by comparison of what's on the market.

I really have no idea what happened to my old lobsterboat. I only heard years later through some of the offshore guys that my old boat was still fishing and that it had been glassed over. The guy that bought it was admittedly daft, and I'm not sure if he would have even considered tightening up the decks.

If I do this, it will be for a part year liveaboard and the last thing I want to do is diminish it's value instead of increasing it. As for it's condition, I've probably looked, owned, and repaired at as many boats as some surveyors over the last 15 years - that doesn't worry me. I just have never done anything as drastic as fiberglassing a wooden boat.

Can anyone confirm the threat of boat-eating worms in the warm waters of the Caribbean? I can probably make the insurance and marina thing work one way or the other, but as I said - the long term goal is to go south.

[Ike]

I think glassing a wood boat is condemning it to a early grave. Wood when properly maintained will last almost forever. There are wooden boats that are over 100 years old still sailing.

Glassing traps the moisture inside the wood. Rot city. I bought a wood sailboat that had been glassed. I ground the glass off and replaced a lot of wood that had rotted. After that it was just fine.

As for insurance, there are companies that specialize in insuring wood boats. Look in WoodenBoat Magazine.

Warm water is harder on wood boats. Think about copper cladding the bottom. It's worked for hundreds of years. Off course there are bottom paints that do the same but many are toxic.

[longliner45]

Ive hade several boats in my lifetime ,,one inparticulare was the dayton showboat built in sandusky ohio for national cash register,,it was lapstreak mahogony and glassed below the waterline ,,it was built in at or around 1900.. my latest boat is a spencer hull designed in vancover canada ,it is a plywood sailboat with 2 layers of glass over it ,,,it is from 1967,,,never been wet yet,but I see no problems,, with that said ,,I think that ,if you glass over rot ,,you will get rot,,,,,,,glassing over good dry wood is OK........longliner

[PAR]

There are usually several possible reasons or justifications for 'glassing over a wooden hull. In a tired old hull, it can provide some additional service that would be prohibitively expensive otherwise (plank repairs). This is common and where the most successes are seen. A near spent wooden hull, needing new bottom planks, re-done seams, possibly other structural issues can have a new lease on life with a heavy coating of 'glass. This is typical of working vessels, a heavy cloth coating that will restore strength to the weakened hull. It's a death nail for the wooden parts coated, but they were near death anyway.

A light coating of fabric will not restore strength to the structure (depending on construction type, the planking can be responsible for as much as 90% of the longitudinal hull stiffness). This light coating will only offer some additional abrasion resistance, depending of cloth type used.

Traditional wooden boat construction methods don't mix well with fabric sheathings. The reason is simply that the wooden parts move. They move with moisture gain, they move in concert with near by brother structural members while under way. A stiff, plastic coating will not move as much and will eventually tear (shear) from the wood, taking bit and pieces with it. Then you have a plastic bag surrounding your wood, which traps moisture and rots gets going in a big way.

If you just want a few years service from the old girl, then a light cloth coating will get you by, but the damage will be extensive in a few years. If you want more from her, then a thicker, heavier coating will be needed. This can stand as the hull proper with a bunch of wood inside. You have to keep the bilge dry on this type of boat, or the structure will rot. The heavy coating has the draw back of being additional weight the engines have to drag along.

Getting 'glass to stick to old, well soaked wood, isn't easy. It often takes many months for the planking to be dry enough to accept the goo and fabric, with a reasonable assurance that it will stay stuck. The planking needs to be ground to bare wood and not be contaminated with other things, like fuel or other oils, waxes, paint, marine life, etc. which often requires aggressive sanding of the planking (further weakening it).

More often then not the boat is suffering from other issues, that may be more directly responsible for leaking. The planking may just need some new fasteners and caulk or some broken frames could need sisters.

'Glassing a wooden boat will decrease it's market value considerably, most looking to spend second mortgage money, on a fine wooden yacht, will promptly walk away at the hint of a 'glassed hull. With the large number of well restored wooden craft available on the market today (there's a glut currently), repair efforts not in the best interest of the vessel are not highly prized.

Ultimately, this is a difficult decision for the owner. To many it boils down to dollars, but this should be weighed against the ability of future repairs, or upgrades, resale value, expected life span and in use serviceability (enjoyment or the ability to earn it's keep).

It can easily seem like a good option at first glance ('glassing the hull), but like all things in life, comes with it's share of pit falls.

A good 'glassing job will likely rival the proper planking repairs in cost. A cheap 'glass job can save you dollars now, but the boat will die pretty quickly. Correctly performed, traditional repairs, maybe with some modern techniques tossed in for good measure, can provide the sweet lady another 50 years of service. I just finished a long restoration of a 42 year old powerboat. She's ready for another 42 years, though will likely get an engine or two, a trans, probably a hand full of props, new equipment and upgrades, before it's all said and done in 2048.

The next guy that has to restore her will cuss some of my efforts (epoxy work mostly) and be thankful I used traditional methods on other things (polysulfide seams and laminated, steam bent frames). I hope he will not be tempted by the wonder goo in a can, but I can see how many folks are.

[Scott Carter]

Cogent and salient thoughts from PAR. I must resist the urge to repeat every word s/he's posted in response to your questions. The purpose for which you're considering using your vessel should dictate whether you 'glass or not. As many times already mentioned in this thread, it is not an attractive feature of a vessel to a would-be buyer, unless they accepted x-number of years as the forseeable tenure of the boat afloat.
If you're needing simply to stem leaks, then perhaps stealers installed in the rotting sections of the planking might address some of this need. If she's not lap-straked then whole plank replacement might also be an alternative for a novice or just in-experienced repairer. Don't over-estimate the skill or experience required to replace a plank. You've got a pattern (a hole in the hull) and the rest is basic craftsmanship. Compare this result (done perhaps a few more times over) to a plastic bag around your boat and it seems to me that if longevity were to be placed high on the priority ladder then plank replacement holds many attractivce features.
In the end, it will come down to a matter of finance vs. longevity, but don't neglect what PAR mentioned re. added weight of heavy 'glass. Marry this with the added weight of all of the water in the bilge ('glass makes it water"proof" in both directions) and your boat may be a bath tub once you're finished, sucking fuel at considerably higher rates.
It's a good question to periodically ask (I've seen it posted here-abouts before) because the magic elixir of candy coating holds appeal for many to be sure. The aftertaste is the bitch, though.

[old-boat-man]

Well Ive been in the boat bussiness for a little over 40 years now.Ive seen alot,heard alot and done alot. This whole glassing over old wood hulls is pretty much like anything else in this bussiness.Eveyones got an opinion on it and upon reading all your posts here I must say I agree with all of ya. Theres good and bad in doing this,just as theres good and bad in having a wooden boat period. I have done this many a times over the years and without failure. I have however repaired a few boats that had this done by other people where it had failed VERY badly! The failure occured from using polyester fiberglass resin. It dont bond to the wood as well as Epoxy and thus often times seperates from the wood. As I mentioned over the years Ive glassed over many hulls and used Epoxy resin and many of those boats are still regular customers that I see once a year for a simple bottom paint.The oldest one being a 1936 Lobster boat that I glassed back in 1981 and it,like the rest I did has no problems at all. The most insane job Ive ever done was on a 1940 36' work boat. It was old and had actually sank. The owner wanted a wider and longer boat and had asked me to widen the hull and add 8' to her stern.I just sort of shook my head as it sounded insane. But I did what he asked and started widening the hull by attaching 4"X 1/4" strips to the old hull and slowly building it out. I then used 4'" X 3/4" strips to plank over the new frames that were built on the outside of the old hull.It was basically building a new hull by using the old hull as a frame to build off of. After it was all planked I put about 12 layers of glass (Epoxy) on the new outter hull and that was 8 years ago and she's still doing great. Without a doubt that was the most insane thing Id ever done to a boat but thanks to the Epoxy,it worked well. So bottom line is for anyone who is considering glassing a wood hull,it can be done and it does work if done properly with Epoxy resin and on good wood.

[Roly]

I am in the middle of glassing a wooden boat. In fact rebuilding would be a better word as I was not happy with moisture levels in the 35yr old planking.
It has new scantlings and will no longer be a wooden boat, rather a wood cored boat.
http://www.imagestation.com/album/in...?id=2120245606

For what it is worth, my project is not cost effective,but I am enjoying doing it.

[old-boat-man]

Well Roly upon gazing at your craft it looks like you got a pretty nice boat and looks to be a great candidate for glassing.As far as the cost effectivness,if its done properly will no doubt save you money in maintenece cost down the road. Also as long as your having fun thats the most imporatnt part of all of this.Good luck!

[Roly]

with Epoxy resin and on good wood.

That 'bout covers it.
Pretty simple rules! There are few minor details such as epoxy locking members together that may have been designed to move a little but nothing
that can't be addressed with a little forethought (and tons of expense!).

Thanks oldboatman, still aways to go!

[old-boat-man]

There are few minor details such as epoxy locking members together that may have been designed to move a little but nothing
that can't be addressed with a little forethought (and tons of expense!).

Yes sir theres always some issues that arise no matter what the job.But as you say,a little forthought will save time and money! Keep us posted on your final result.

[trawler builder]

fibreglassing wooden boats has been done here for years , and alot of them are still going strong . i am more a fan of using a polyester resin than expoxy ,cheaper and stronger i feel . the main thing in fibreglassing a wooden boat is to nail it off real good . 4 to 6 inches square ,after applying the first or first 2 layers of glass .
while it does increase the weight of the boat , it also makes it watertight and durable. a good fairing job and applying a paint like awl-grip and most people won't know it is a wooden boat .

tb

[Roly]

i am more a fan of using a polyester resin than expoxy ,cheaper and stronger i feel

If you mean polyester is 1/3 the price so you can make it twice as thick, (allowing 1/3 cost for glass)then maybe. But test results do not bear that out. In any case you have to nail polyester skins down or they will ultimately peel off. The industry standard for wood is epoxy.

[drcoastline]

I recently purchased a 43' mahogany planked Sportfisherman. I am nearly positive this boat was glassed when it was built in 1971. The glass is delaminating in areas and needs to be replaced. I came looking for advice on what weight and type of mat to use and resin. The glass is obviously there for protection not strenght so I didnt know if I could use chooper mat instead of a woven mat. Now I'm wondering if all the glass should be stripped off? The boat does have some rot that needs to be repaired but I can't say it was becuase of the glass being there. It appears to me it is becuase people have pocked holes all over it to attach various apparatuses such as the tower and snaps for covers and water eventually seeped in. I think this boat would have had the rot in these areas even with out glass. I once worked for a guy that had a 40' wood post sportfisherman and he had rot in his hull and that boat was'nt glassed. If I choose to strip and not regalss it how would I seal the wood for protection prior to finishing?