30' cypress cabin cruiser

Hi,
I am a new member here and am a furniture builder by trade and have built a couple of stitch and glue boats.
I have just acquired and old cypress cabin cruiser in Louisiana. It was sunk when it was retired. I am told cypress doesn't rot when submerged and indeed I can find very little rot on her. Her hull is planked, most paint and caulking gone. My first question is this, Since I expect to trailor the boat and have her in the water only occasionally would I be better off using epoxy and glass or caulking her as she was originally. I am worried she might never swell completly and always leak. Alternativly I do not want to weaken her or cause a problem with the hull swelling closed with the epoxy. Any suggestions? Thanks

 

Hi Wade,

The problem with old boats is, the water content of the wood!
A lot of people think that by applying epoxy and glass on an old boat, they can preserve it. But in fact what they are doing is putting on a "death cloth" (translation from Dutch phrase, but you get the idea).
Ofcourse, nothing is impossible, I have heard of projects that worked out fine, but it takes a lot of time.
You have to make sure that the water content of the wood is below 12 %. But when you are drying the hull, it will open up (first problem).
Then, when the boat is clinker build, you have to make fillets on all the strakes to take the glass.
And, to do a real good job, if you get the boat dry enough glass it inside and outside, Make a sandwichconstruction and really preserve the wood.

That's one alternative.

Here's an other idea, why not replace the caulking with a sealand (sika). That's flexible, so working of the wood is no problem and it doesn't close in the wood so rot is less of a problem.
But I have no experience with this, maybe fellow forum members have better ideas.

Peter

 

I agree. If you can get the wood dry, epoxy/glass inside and out. Glassing the outside might work if you want to let wood "breathe" from the inside.

There are some guys on this forum that have done this very type of repair, hopefully they can give some anecdotal advise.

Joel
Boatbuildercentral.com

 

closing in hull

Thanks Shine and Peter,
I would love to not close it in. I'm hoping for some ideas about what to use though. I'm still real concerned about the boat always leaking because of not leaving her on the water. Maybe I am way off base. Though anymore feedback would be wellcome. I've learned she may be a pre ww2 Higgins. In such a case she needs restoring. Wade

 

We have sold epoxy and light weight (4 oz.) fiberglass cloth to repair yards that use them to seal older wooden boats below the water line on the outside. You might just do that much.

Joel
Boatbuildercentral.com

 

Wade,

I'm not real sure, JRShine will correct me when I'm wrong (won't you?!), I seam to remember an article in Woodenboat on a repair job on a carvel planked boat. They cut open the seams for about 1/2" (approx. 10-15 mm){again a nice one for the 'inches and gallons' discussion} and glued in a soft wood with epoxy. The idea being the soft wood replaces the caulking, it can take the shrinking and swelling of the original planking, it swells faster (being the newer wood) so prevents leakage, still gives original looks, less maintenance than the caulking, etc. etc.
As I write it down, it sounds/reads real logical, but I'm sure it'll work.
I hope I can find the article, I'll post it!

Can you post a pic of your boat?


Regards,


Peter

 

Some precautions to take...

Swamp cypress of Louisiana is a very resistant wood but you have to take some precautions before beginning to restore the cabin cruiser.

As you write the boat stayed sunk and the paint and caulking are gone. The wood has no rotten because under water (specially if it is in a swamp) the water is too acid and lack oxygen to permit rotting. The fungus need water and oxygen.

The wood is probably oversaturated of water (more than 30 % humidity). And when it will begin to dry you'll have two problems; shrinking and warping of the wood, and growth of fungus because they will have plenty of oxygen.

In my opinion, the first thing is to dry slowly the boat under shadow with good ventilation. The boat must be sitten on a berth so it won't warp. In same time you have to desinfect the boat of all the fungus.

Happily the solution is well known, effective and cheap; monoethylene-glycol
(widely used as a antifreezer component for cars). The monoethylene-glycol will slow the process of drying thus disminushing the internal tensions of the wood and will act also as a very strong antifungus and insecticide. The application is very simple with a garden sprayer; as with all chemicals precautions has to be taken.

You can also treat the inside of the boat with octoborate, on wet wood it shall penetrate deeply into the wood. So the boat will be protected against any futur rot.

The drying must be slow and even, that can take some time. The aspect of the boat after the drying is generally frightening: all the seams are open, the caulk is gone and the paint falls from the wood. But you'll have know a clean good basis for restoration.

A very good, and the simplest, way to make the caulking is a bisulfite over primary. Bisulfite glues very well, is very elastic, sands easily also. The fishing boat decks in pine are caulked in this way and stand a lot of abuse.

Although I have a very long experience of wood epoxy building since 1971, I'm not fond of using epoxy on old classic built boats, except some gluings. Wood-epoxy works very well when the boat has been designed for this material as every small piece of dry wood is encapsulated in epox thus blocking any movement. It's a true composite where glass fiber and foam core is remplaced by wood.

Classic wood boats are pretty flexible and even after a good drying the wood may remain 16-19 % in humid climats like Luisiana. All the trials I've seen in France on old boats with epoxy the work have not lasted a long time.

In classic boats a good treatment of boiled linseed oil (doped with zinc naphtenate for drying and against mold) with pine tar in the bilges and clear on the other surfaces, before the "oil" paint job, gives very good surfaces. The maintenance remains easy as you have only to refresh the paint. This paint system is flexible and won't chip.

If you want to use epoxy, you have to dry the wood at 12 %, not use any borate for treating the wood, and completely encapsulate the hull inside with at least five coats and outside with 6 oz or more cloth and five coats over the cloth.

It's like freezing a classic hull in plastic as any dimensional variation of the wood would strip off the epox. For me it's a bit criminal to encapsulate a classic built boat in epoxy, but it'a personal opinion.

Good Luck.

 

I successfully used 3M 5200 in a similar situation. It is flexible, suitable for use beneath the waterline, has exellent adhesion, and considerably greater strength than seam compounds. Sikaflex would probably also be suitable.

 

Hate to burst the slap on some stick'um and go for it crowd's bubble, but old, wet, traditionally constructed wooden boats shed their newly applied epoxy coatings pretty quickly, or you've used enough of it and a bunch of reinforcement to entomb it, which is good, because the soon to rot mess will have a plastic sack to contain the landfill fodder.

Boats NEED to be designed for the coatings we put on them. Epoxy structures REQUIRE complete embalming for it to work properly and that coating MUST be maintained or you're locking moisture in the wood and this will spell disaster.

There is no cure all product available to dunk a boat into that will seal out moisture and keep the joints tight.

Traditionally constructed boats work. In that, the pieces of the structure move as the boat makes it's way. The structure relies on this property and will have a long life, if this feature isn't fooled with. Lock down this structure and pieces that previously relied on other members to help out in the load bearing roles as they flexed and moved, will be isolated in there freshly hardened joints, where things start breaking. The structure isn't designed to handle those types of localized loads and a once proud craft will tear itself apart from the new loads imposed by poorly conceived repairs and techniques.

This isn't to say people don't do it or swear by Their methods. Your boat sounds nice and should be saved, IF (and this is the truly hard part) it is worth saving or even savable (it may be to far gone, but you haven't gotten into the structure far enough to find out yet, lets hope not)

Since you'd like to trailer her and keep her on the hard most of the time and the fact she's an old girl looking for a new owner to love her, your options are reduced. On a mooring or at a berth, she'd have a chance to take up, maybe even get tight enough to stay reasonable dry, trailer sailing will not allow this. The wet/dry cycling will be hard on her, but her construction may have had this in mind. Well conditioned seams and fresh caulk could seal her tight enough to do fine, but if the seams have crushed or been pounded too hard or worked too sloppy for to long, you may have to toss, seemingly good material for replacements.

I'd recommend you slowly dry her out, in a shed if possible as the north side of the Gulf is a wet place. Have a survey done, or at least have a real pro look her over, they'll see things you can't and will have local knowledge of where and how to get things done. She was retired awash and this means EVERYTHING aboard should be considered questionable, until the piece can be proven other wise.

I see near dead boats all the time. Many owners, bring over photos of long forgotten boats they (left to rot) have in storage up north, hoping beyond hope someone will tell them they can save it. I saw pictures of a sweet 70 year old little Garwood last month, all original, engine, planks, upholstery, everything. It's been sitting under an Army tent for a cover for 30 years in a barn. The helm seat has fallen through the bottom planks. Had I been able to get to it 10-15 years ago it would be worth it. Now, every piece will need be replaced, save the hardware for a rechroming.

Don't let me steer you off, I'm in a bad mood. I just got back from the Charlotte River area, helping some friends bashed about by the hurricane. Lots of damage, lots of battered boats, lots more battered lives. I've seen plenty of storm damage, but these folks got caught with their pants down, thinking the storm was going to be a hundred or more miles north of them. A damn sin it is . . .

 

PAR is right...

PAR is right: classic wood boats are not designed to be freezed with epoxy or to have cycles wet/dry like on a trailer. I have no great experience with yachts but a lot with fishing boats as classic wood is the principal material for building them in Europe in the small sizes (until 12 meters). It's strong, very durable (30 years at least), easy to repair, easy to modify.

PAR is right again when he says you have to see if the boat is worth to be restored...Pay a good naval carpenter or surveyor for an expertise; it is a good expense, before doing anything.

About 3M 5200; like the Sikaflex it is a good product thatI use a lot, but the price is not very friendly and on an old wooden boat you have kilometers of seams... I ( and many others) have used bisulfite sealant on fishing boats which work in very hard seas ( thus having a lot of structural movements) with success. It needs a good technic I won't detail here.

 

Thanks all,
Par your advice seems sound to me. I am sure a person could temporarily get away with a lot but I don't mind the work and if it gets done needs to be done right. I've added ( I think) a pic of the creature in question. She has been up for about 4 years now and was recently moved out of a barn. I looked at her hard ( but not thouroughly) about two years ago and saw her this summer. I didn't go over her then but she seems strong when you are near her. I often can feel when a house is seriously sick or just needing attention. After a better inspection My first step is to get her moved to Tennessee and in the dry again. I am thinking of this as a long term project and not something to get done quickly. Without bragging I am considered a master craftsman ( woodworker) and am sure I can handle the project skillwise.
I grew up on a houseboat in South Louisiana and sympathize with Par's Florida friends.
I'll table the epoxy idea for now and plan on doing her right. If I can't use her here because of the trailoring issue I'll sell her and get something more suitable. I wonder what leaving her in the water for a month every so often would do for her with frequent trips in between,,, oh well just dreaming.
Is there a rule of thumb on how wide a gap should be caulked? I can check the moisture without a problem,And could you recommend any good tested products for the job. Thanks again, Wade

 

I saw a man redo a wooden boat. he put 5200(I think, I could find out for sure though if interested) all over the bottom and put glass on the 5200 (while still wet) then coated with poly (He said if you use epoxy it would just fall off) that was a year ago and the boat is doing fine. No fiberglass on the inside. Needs to breath. He glassed about 12 inches above the water line down.
Ben

 

That's what I mean with a death cloth!!! In five years he'll be in trouble.
Polyester is even worse than epoxy, because polyester can let water trough (osmosis!!!). This is absolute the worsed thing you can do on a wooden boat!

 

Hi and thanks,
I am convinced the epoxy and /or fiberglass is not the thing to do. As a woodworker I know what will happen to wood only coated on one side. I intend to finish her as she was built using modern materials but based on the same theory. I am thinking if I leave her in the water for a month or so and then park her and use a sprinkler system on a timer pumping from our pond she might stay closed up. I want to restore her and if the plan doesn't work I'll sale her. If anyone has succeeded in epoxy coating for long term it would be good to hear about it though.

 

After reading your post (I thought well HELL that was the worst answer I could give anyone) so I called the man who did the repair on his old boat.
1) Duthch was and is right, poly (by itself) will let moister in
2) the 5200 putty will not let moister in, the glass gives the 5200 strength
and the poly ties it all together
(5200 goes against the wood)
3) he painted the inside with epoxy paint

I guess we will see if the combo works or not