Trawler questions

[Tad]

Eric....

The internet is a dangerous place......I see I'm quoted on your website, presumably as some sort of expert? Inexperienced? You know nothing of my experience. But that's okay, you must defend your product....in this case against nothing.

The reason I post on this forum is to try and help folks understand something concerning naval architecture or boat design. I often have to clarify statements that are taken out of context or misunderstood.

Boats are available in all manner of shapes and sizes, this is good and keeps us all busy. And everyone has an axe or two to grind (sell).

When I stated........
"Unballasted, lightweight cored construction, shallow draft, wide beam.....all these factors add up to a high sided box floating on top of the water. Motion in a seaway will be quick and exaggerated due to fast shifts of the center of buoyancy in a wide flat hull."

I believe your website states Great Harbour's are unballasted?

I believe a great deal is made of cored construction in your product literature? As opposed to say....all steel construction?

I believe a great deal is made of shallow draft in your product literature?

True you are careful not to say "wide", rather you state, "stable" and "roomy". But everything is relative, compared to my Passagemaker Lite 46' with 11'6" beam, the 15'10" beam of your GH47 is wide.

I include the comparison drawing below to clarify my statement concerning a "box floating on top of the water"....folks can make up their own minds on that one....

The comparison vessel is my design, the Ocean 55'. LOA is 55'0", LWL is 51'2", beam is 15', draft is 6'0", displacement about 75,000 pounds at half load, cruising speed is 7 knots with a 105 HP John Deere turning a 40" wheel through a 4:1 reduction gear.

The GH47 is 46'10" LOA, LWL is 46'1", beam is 15'10", draft is 2'10", displacement is 70,000 pounds full load, cruising speed 8.25 knots with twin 75HP Yanmars.



I believe that, referencing the drawing above, you should be able to understand that as each boat heels, the shift of B outboard will be quicker (and farther) in the GH than in the Ocean. What this implies is that motion (righting force) will be more quickly applied. Some folks are comforted by this rapid righting, others are worn out by it and would prefer the slower and deeper rolling of the Ocean type hull.

Neither boat is right for everyone......

[dskira]

Originally Posted by alrod

I'm new to the forum and to trawlers in general, currently owning a 22 panga fishing boat and 24 foot Bayliner. My question relates to choosing the right trawler for short passages in the Caribbean area. I've read about the various designs, including KK, Nordhavns, etc. but would like something that will allow me to gunk hole in relatively shallow areas. Also, I like simplicity and the redundancy of two engines, as well as the fact that the hull design does not need paravanes.

Previously the issue of the Mirage Great Harbor 37 & 47 and their suitability for travel from East to West Coast through the Panama Canal was raised. However, I did not find a definite answer as to whether these boats were suitable for such passage which allows for many stops along the way. Neither have I found any information from the manufacturer addressing this matter as it pertains to the GH37 class trawler.

It is understood that the GH 37/47 are coastal trawlers not suitable for long passages, however, being that I'm considering upon retirement cruising primarily in the Caribbean, I'd like to know if a trip, for example from Key West to Isla Mujeres, and from there to Caiman would be feasable with any degree of confidence. We saw one of these boats at the Miami boat show couple of years ago and my wife likes how much they feel like a house.

Thanks in advance for any assistance in clarifying this matter.

In my humble opinion you should talk privatly with TAD.
He has a great experiences in motor boat.
You can even have him design the boat of your dream.
To be precise: I know TAD by his work, I don't know him privatly and I never had any business with him.
Cheers
Daniel

[Guillermo]

I'm wondering how the GH's perform in really hard (a force 10, i.e) sustained oceanic conditions with their shallow draught and high superstructure.

In my humble opinion they seem rather oriented to island hopping and anchoring in shallow protected waters, which probably they do nicely, but I may be wrong.

Cheers.

[Guest62110524]

all rather intrigueing
could you put up a stability curve of the boat in question please

Originally Posted by Guillermo

I'm wondering how the GH's perform in really hard (a force 10, i.e) sustained oceanic conditions with their shallow draught and high superstructure.

In my humble opinion they seem rather oriented to island hopping and anchoring in shallow protected waters, which probably they do nicely, but I may be wrong.

Cheers.

They do´nt perform well Guillermo.
There was a rather hot debate on another forum or blog about one year ago. Could´nt find it again.
The result was pretty clear, Bahamas to Key Largo yes (but every bathtub can). Westcoast to Hawaii, as one of the boats made, was good luck and bad seamanship!

Regards
Riccard

[marshmat]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

I'm wondering how the GH's perform in really hard (a force 10, i.e) sustained oceanic conditions with their shallow draught and high superstructure.

In my humble opinion they seem rather oriented to island hopping and anchoring in shallow protected waters, which probably they do nicely, but I may be wrong.

Cheers.

The hulls are modelled after hard-chine coastal workboats. The interiors are modelled after waterfront condominiums. Serious blue-water crews tend to want more confined spaces (less room to get tossed around) and deeper-riding hulls, although that's not to say a GH couldn't be outfitted with sufficient hand-holds and tie-down points to handle getting tossed around offshore.
I tend to agree that, based on the manufacturer's specs, and the owner reports and reviews I've seen, the Great Harbour boats are intended more for coastal passages and island hopping than for extended ocean passages. (Which makes sense- after all, coastal cruising is a much larger market, and one that tends to be turned off by true offshore features.) I won't pass judgement, though, until I've been on one myself.

[Pierre R]

Originally Posted by kraftee

Hi, I'm new to the Boards - and I know that this is an OLD thread - but after reading it and seeing the misinfomation, well, I just HAD to respond.

I am Sales Manager for Mirage Manufacturing, builder of the Great Harbour Trawlers and Mirage Sportfish boats. I spend a LOT of time aboard - in fact, I log about 5,000 miles per year aboard the various Great Harbour models - inshore, nearshore and in multi-night offshore passages. I CAN talk enthusiastically and knowledgably about our products.

The gentleman who started this thread asked a simple question. He wanted to know if a Great Harbour trawler was suitable for use in the Caribbean and to traverse the Panama Canal to head up the West Coast. Well, instead of correct information from posters who might have been aboard a Great Harbour offshore, he gets UNINFORMED CONJECTURE from posters with EXACTLY ZERO EXPERIENCE!

I will caution what I say because in other forums in the past you have been very agressive against anyone who has posted anything negative in any way about the GH.

The GH certainly does not have underwater design going for her in terms of a sea friendly design. What she does have going for her is Inertia. She's a tank and slow to get tossed around because of that but that does not substitute for underwater design. Waves are still waves and have their own physics associated with them.

The GH is still a boat that is largely going to follow the surface of the wave patterns. The wave patterns where the GH shows a great deal of discomfort are not that uncommon in coastal waters or in the open ocean. I know people who you have trashed for saying the GH delivers a harsh ride in a beam on short chop of 2' to 4' waves. The kind of waves found in places like Lake Erie, the Chesapeake and Albermarle Sound.

I do not think the GH boats are a bad boats if used as really intended by the designer but I think you oversell them and in listening to new owners, I think you are effective at that. Buyer beware. Sea boats make lousy houses and houses make lousy sea boats. You can have your house and a sea boat too but it starts at around 50'. Tad is one of my hero's and right on the money.

I think the GH is a fine boat, a fantastic liveaboard boat and a fine coastal cruiser if you watch your weather. Then again, I suppose you are no different than the rest of the boat reps. They all seem to be trying to sell fair weather coastal cruisers as go anywhere boats. The GP seems think that if it looks like a trawler or a tug it must be seaworthy regardless of the real underwater design and dynamic stability parameters. If it looks like their house they like it. I cannot fault Mirage for that. The boats I really like woundn't sell cuz they are real sea boats.

Now I expect you to trash me but not maybe as bad as others before me. I do like the GH within reason.

[dskira]

Originally Posted by kraftee

Hi, I'm new to the Boards - and I know that this is an OLD thread - but after reading it and seeing the misinfomation, well, I just HAD to respond.

I am Sales Manager for Mirage Manufacturing, builder of the Great Harbour Trawlers and Mirage Sportfish boats. I spend a LOT of time aboard - in fact, I log about 5,000 miles per year aboard the various Great Harbour models - inshore, nearshore and in multi-night offshore passages. I CAN talk enthusiastically and knowledgably about our products.

The gentleman who started this thread asked a simple question. He wanted to know if a Great Harbour trawler was suitable for use in the Caribbean and to traverse the Panama Canal to head up the West Coast. Well, instead of correct information from posters who might have been aboard a Great Harbour offshore, he gets UNINFORMED CONJECTURE from posters with EXACTLY ZERO EXPERIENCE!

Rather than throw stones here, let me make a few simple statements of fact. Great Harbours are not "...high sided box(es) floating on top of the water..." They are VERY HEAVY, FULL-DISPLACEMENT, UNSINKABLE, OFFSHORE-CAPABLE yachts with simple, owner-serviceable systems, HUGE engine rooms, reliable home appliances, VERY livable spaces, TONS of storage, TWIN small diesels, shallow draft and easily-maintained, NO-WOOD exteriors. Our hulls are SOLID fiberglass (two-inches thick at the bows) - not cored. We only have coring from the rubrails up - and that coring is plastic honeycomb, vacuum-bagged NidaCore. No maintenace, no rot, excellent sound and heat insulation. The coring in the decks and superstructure - combined with no ballast is what gives us our unsinkability. We will float even when fully swamped. Physics.

Best of all, our Form-Stable hulls are naturally stable both underway and at rest and do not rely on expensive, complex, dangerous stabilizer systems. Believe me, we build HEAVY, FULL-DISPLACMENT boats. We displace exactly as much water as other full-displacement boats of similar size. We just take our displcement OUT rather than down. Again. Physics.

But that's enough ranting from me. If the original poster still logs on to these boards, I am more than happy to discuss the benefits, features and limitations of our boats. Alternatively, I am happy to arrange for him to correspond with any of our long-term owners - or Ken Fickett (owner of our company) or even Lou Codega (our hull designer). Finally, the answer to his original question is a resounding YES. Our boats were DESIGNED for exactly the type of trip he envisioned.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers here, but I really think that people should not answer posts unless they have something FACTUAL - or at least within their experience - to add to the conversation.

ERIC

Lets face it, the GH is a great barge with a lot of accommodation.
You don't need experience when a hull looks like a barge, it is a barge.
Be realistic, and the GH will be even a better boat without the selling speach of the sale manager.
Cheers
Daniel

[FAST FRED]

Most every sailboat has positive stability , and should come right side up after a roll.

The mast may go but the basic boat will be intact. Loads of production cookies have circumnavigated

There is loads of experience rolling USCG boats inverted and letting them right , if they can.

Would be great fun to see this barge rolled, then salvaged.

OR just the stabilty graph to compare to known ocean worthy vessels

FF

[El Sea]

Alrod,

Most boats are suitable for your ventures IF you choose the right weather window and feel capable with your own skills.


"It's the voyage, not the vessel"