Seaworthiness

[Guest-3-12-09-9-21]

I prefer to read about these types of adventures than to actually live them.

I'm sorry, but when the height of the waves exceeds the length of your boat it is time to be sitting on a nice warm bar stool somewhere toasting the poor dumb bastards that HAVE to be sailing out there.

I don't even want to think about being in 25-35 foot breaking seas on a 27 foot long vessel - especially without a drogue or a sea anchor.

[BillyDoc]

Hi All,

In August of 1977 I was sailing a Contessa 26 (25 foot boat) single-handed out of England and got caught in a strong gale at about 47 degrees 35.2 N and 12 degrees 25.6 West. What follows is the entry from my log on the 18th.

" ... the winds described on the 16th quickly built in force until carrying any sail at all was impossible. It was so rough that at one point, while sitting on the port bunk, I was thrown across the cabin to hit the starboard porthole upside down: i.e., my head was below the porthole, by butt against the overhead.

But my trouble really began after dawn on the 17th. I was still trying to figure out the best way to weather the wind and waves and thought I would try running before it, as it was a northerly gale and going my way. This I did successfully for several hours (I knew from BBC shipping weather that it cleared to the south of my position) until a freak wave thoroughly pooped me. I still shudder to remember this, the vaves were by this time (15 hours into the gale) built up higher than my spreaders, perhaps about 20 feet, with streaks of foam blowing along their surface. I had my stern to and was rising nicely over them all when the freak broke right behind me, rising up a good 10 feet over my head. I held on with all my might, and I fancy myself to have a fair grip, but I was wrenched from the tiller and thrown against the cockpit floor against my right shoulder (now sore as hell) as if I needn't have bothered. So far, par for the course in a gale, I suppose, but I had stupidly left the companionway hatch open as well and when I looked in the cabin there was a foot and a half of water sloshing about. Also, Poiesis had noticeably settled in the water. This terrified me. I knew that another wave of the same sort would send me down. I remembered at that time reading a quip somewhere that a "scared man with a bucket made a very good pump" and I truly qualified! I grabbed the bucket, leaped into the cabin, inserted two of the "wash boards" and began throwing water "as if my life depended on it" --- which I suspect it did.

During this activity I had, of course, abandoned the tiller. When I looked out at it the tiller was moving fairly slowly back and forth about 18 inches amid utter chaos. This was definitely the best storm tactic to use."

Which is exactly the tactic I used for the next several days. It isn't mentioned in this log entry but I had read Adlard Coles "Heavy Weather Sailing" and the first "tactic" I had tried was to heave-to. This didn't work at all in these big waves, I think because the sails (which were quite short) spent a good deal of their time in the wind shadow of the waves. It was also sometimes difficult to actually tell which way the wind was blowing, it was that chaotic. I eventually discovered that the streaks on the water's surface were the best indicator of wind direction to use. My masthead wind vane was long gone by that time.

I used the "lie a hull" technique for years thereafter, but fortunately never again found myself in such a fierce storm. (And I hope I never do!) This was before the series drogue was invented (I think), but as I dream of a new boat in the near future one thing that will definitely be on board is a series drogue. I saw 90 foot waves in a Pacific typhoon from on board an aircraft carrier (which got the crap beat out of it) and I don't see how any mere sailing vessel can heave-to in that kind of ruckus. The series drogue just makes a lot of sense to me. Heaving-to and running --- don't, that is if it is truly wild out.

BillyDoc

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by BillyDoc

.... was to heave-to. This didn't work at all in these big waves, I think because the sails (which were quite short) spent a good deal of their time in the wind shadow of the waves....

Yeap, that makes sense.

My heavy weather experience offshore is very limited as I've been only three times in such conditions, but neither for very extended periods of time, nor in extreme conditions. All of them without sea-anchors or drogues aboard.

One was a southeasterly gale, force 10 at its most, for about four days in the gulf of Biscay. We hove to happily this one just for some hours off the coasts of Brittany, but waves were no bigger than 18-20 ft and boat was a seaworthy 40 footer.

Another one was something like a force 9 at its most, off the coast of Portugal and heaving to was not an option, so we runned that super-heavy long keeled 33 ft double ender before it just with the storm jib. No major problems, but tillering was exhausting and breaking seas pooped the boat all night long, in the way described by Skip Allan. We were three aboard, switching positions in a 2 hours scheme, one tillering, the second one bucketing out the foot of water in the bilges and the third one trying to rest in sloshing dresses. Not nice, but I was young and irresponsible an never had a feeling of danger.

Last time we were 5 grown guys in a 23 footer in the Gulf's current against a force 7 northeasterly wind, between Key West and Cuba. Waves were a mere 9-12 ft but very short and steep and breaking all around. We pushed hard through it and were shaked like corks all night long, to discover in the morning we almost had lost the stern hanging rudder. Repairing it in those conditions was a demanding task indeed.

That's all I can personally refer to. I hope to never be caught in a real difficult situation, being my only chance to abandon the boat.

Cheers.

[Guest-3-12-09-9-21]

What is a "series drogue"? I believe that I've read something about a long line with a bunch of smaller drogues on it that was designed to prevent the failure of a single drogue - like when it becomes entrained in a huge breaking wave, etc. Does anyone have the plans for a series drogue?

[RHough]

What is a "series drogue"? I believe that I've read something about a long line with a bunch of smaller drogues on it that was designed to prevent the failure of a single drogue - like when it becomes entrained in a huge breaking wave, etc. Does anyone have the plans for a series drogue?

Here is a link: Jordan Series Drogue

I have yet to see the kind of conditions described here ... but I do carry a 107 cone drogue. There are 1/4" SS chainplates in the hull just below deck level, through bolted to a 1/4" backing plate with 5 3/8" fasteners ... boat is 30 ft and 10,000 pounds.

[Guest-3-12-09-9-21]

Thank you for the link - I remember reading about this back at Kings Point in the late 80's and I have been trying to find information about it since then!

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Kenneth,
Perhaps not everybody agrees a sea anchor is the better option. At least not for all ocasions and all boats. A properly built, matched to the boat and operated drogue has a lot of supporters. And not everybody carries both systems, sea anchors and sea drogues.
Anyway, when all else fails, heaving to seems to be the right move, I'd say (unless conditions are so extreme you cannot even hoist storm sails up, of course). I'm still wondering why he didn't even consider the possibility.

Cheers.

From the Jordan Series Drogue website:

Model tests clearly show that the behavior of a parachute or cone drag device is unacceptable. As the device is pulled forward, it forms a wake behind it. When the towline goes slack the water in the wake continues to move forward and turns the chute or cone inside out, often causing it to tumble or foul the shroud lines. In the Coast Guard full scale tests in breaking waves on the Columbia River bar, the series drogue performed flawlessly and was retrieved with no damage, while a cone type drogue was destroyed.

I have read accounts where shock loads from a parachute type sea anchor have damaged boats or caused rodes to fail.

The biggest issue I've read about series drogues is difficult retrival in moderate conditions. It is a slow process.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by RHough

The biggest issue I've read about series drogues is difficult retrival in moderate conditions. It is a slow process.

And impossible (according all the "storm tactics" related books I've read) in a storm. So it's disposable item if cannot wait until weather calms down..

[Riverrat1969]

For those of you that wish to put your own series drogue together, Sail Rite has kits for many different sizes of series drogues you can sew yourself. Great folks to do business with.

http://www.sailrite.com/

[RHough]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

And impossible (according all the "storm tactics" related books I've read) in a storm. So it's disposable item if cannot wait until weather calms down..

I've read that too. I wonder why retrieval would be attempted in storm conditions?

Drift should be 36nm in 24 hours, the storms I've followed travel faster than 1.5 knots so the the time of exposure should not be days on end. The impression I got was that conditions had improved to a point that would allow the boat to sail again, but were enough to make drogue retrieval difficult. Waiting until the drogue can be retrieved would seem to be a better choice?

Also, in the accounts I've read, the sailors did not have a retrieval method planned. Once the bridle is aboard, the drogue should be able to be winched aboard. On my boat that limits retrieval load to about 800 pounds at a line speed of about 3 ft per minute. It would take about 90 - 100 minutes to get the drogue aboard ... if I didn't have a heart attack from grinding that long.

If the load on the drogue is higher than that, it probably should not be retrieved.

I've long been an advocate of storm avoidance as the first safety measure. 24 to 72 hour forecasts are pretty reliable these days. Even a slow boat with a 100-125 mile range in 24 hours should be able to alter course and minimize the time she is exposed to storm conditions. IMO active storm avoidance should reduce the chance of ever needing the drogue in the first place, minimize the time that the drogue is needed, and provide enough sea room so retrieval in storm conditions would not be required.

What have you read about the ease of retrieval of other drag devices in storm conditions? After selecting the series drogue for my boat, I have not read much on the subject in the last few years.

[Guest-3-12-09-9-21]

I'm all about storm avoidance...currently running into Fourchon, Louisiana to try and hide from hurricane Ike.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by RHough

What have you read about the ease of retrieval of other drag devices in storm conditions? After selecting the series drogue for my boat, I have not read much on the subject in the last few years.

So far nothing better than a series droque. Easily retriaveble ones generally don't work.
Now I've got an idea of my own device but it needs some developing.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

So far nothing better than a series droque. Easily retriaveble ones generally don't work.
Now I've got an idea of my own device but it needs some developing.

Thats was my impression.

Now the sad thing is that I will probably never do the offshore voyaging I had planned. I've gone to the dark side ... I'm going to be doing coastal cruising in a 30knot cruise power boat ... Trying to decide if I need a drogue for a boat with a 300-400 mile range ...

[BillyDoc]

Splice in a separate retrieval line just beyond the "Y" of the series drogue bridle that is long enough to get to a convenient winch. This retrieval line should be strong enough to hold the drogue as the boat heaves against it. Leave this line somewhat slack during the storm. Then, when you want to retrieve the drogue line just winch up the retrieval line until the bridle lines are slack enough to detach, detach them and keep on winching until the drogue cones come to the winch --- and hopefully just winch past them until it's all in. The drogue cones are flexible and should just go right around the winch capstan. I don't think you can use a self-tailer though.

Another possible approach might be to run the retrieval line past the side of the boat and up over the bow roller (after removing the anchor, of course!) so the anchor capstan (if you have one, NOT the chain gypsy) can be used with a little power assist. This would entail flipping the boat around, but things should be calm enough to do this for you to be wanting to retrieve the series drogue in the first place.

Keep in mind that the series drogue is difficult to retrieve exactly because it's a drogue and resists travel through the water in precisely the direction you are trying to pull it. And this at the same time the boat will be rocking and rolling in the waves against what will seem like a solidly attached anchor. This is not something you will be able to do with mere human muscle. So, step by slow tedious step while keeping some strong attachment on the drogue line at all times.

BillyDoc

[TeddyDiver]

I can aswell put the idea out here so it's for the common benefit if it happens to work.
It's basicly a series droque but the cones have a hole at the bottom. Throw the cone holes goes the retrieval line which, when collected, packs up all the cones one by one starting from the last one and turns them over cone end pointing to boat. Other advantage is the possibility of "reefing" the droque if full length isn't needed. Having two droques makes even possible to steer which direction boat is drifting.
Another though is having this kind of drogue ready packed up for use (as a parachute) in a tube having a "hatch" in the bottom of the boat so it could be used without necessity of going outside. This could be used esp. in lifeboats