Seaworthiness

[Guillermo]

Andrew Simpson's list on well-proven long-distance cruisers between 28 and 40 feet (PBO magazine november issue):
- Vancouver 28
- Nicholson 32
- Victoria 34
- Vancouver 34
- Malö 34
- Moody 346
- Starlight 35
- Warrior 35
- Nicholson 35
- Rival 36
- Island Packet 37
- Westerly Oceanranger 38
- Moody 39
- Najad 400
- Victory 40
- Nicholson 40
- Rival 41

[CT 249]

None of Simpson's listed boats did one of the races under discussion here.

However, there was a Victoria 38 (not a 34 as Simpson lists) in Fastnet '07. It retired. There was a Najad 390 (older and slower sister to the Najad 400 Simpson lists) in the race too. It retired. There was also a Starlight 39, big sister to the Starlight 35 that Simpson lists, which finished third last on IRC; not pushed too hard it appears.

Of the other race under discussion, the Middle Sea event, there were only two boats that would fit into most people's idea of an older cruiser/racer or cruiser -a Swan 46 Mk 1 and a 1973 S&S 43. Neither finished. Therefore statistically 73% of the modern boats retired, compared to 100% of the "classics".

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by CT 249

...Therefore statistically 73% of the modern boats retired, compared to 100% of the "classics".

That's not fair....

Let's not talk about particular cases, which may mean nothing. Let's try to work only with as big data basis and best categorizations as possible, trying to come to representative results. Otherwise we may come back again into endless circular discussions.

Although this thread is basically about the seaworthiness of all around cruising boats (for which there are not good statistics available but only partial perceptions, as Simpson's one on what kind of boats pass the test of times), big races with they registered boat's data are almost the only basis available and workable. The bad thing, as you say, is sailors becoming less proned to drag a beaten boat around the track.

As most of nowadays Club regattas are not oceanic and usually performed in more or less good weather, tendency for Club boating (and so races entries) has sloped towards faster (lighter) boats. Except for a few 'Corintian' sailors, heavy/medium weighters are abandoning the top regatta fields.

You have identified only 33 of such boats for the last Fastnet race (although I have some doubts about the inclusion of some of them) out of 271 entries, so only a meagre 12%. Maybe this is not enough basis to come to representative conclusions regarding the performance of heavy weighters.

I think the question still stands: Is this tendency towards lighter boats one of the causes of this high rate of retirements when things get tough?
Most probably it is not the only one (if at all), as I think other variables also influence, as could be the actual availability of accurate weather info and the bigger number of safe havens available to yachts, as well as a possible lower risk-taking profile of average participants. But I would like to be able to 'crawl' in this 'forest' of data and find out if a tendency is detectable or not.

Cheers.

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

That's not fair....

Let's not talk about particular cases, which may mean nothing.

I agree 100%. However, the "heavy brigade" leaped onto the particular case of Grimalkin in the 1979 Fastnet, and compared her in tank testing to the Contessa 32 (which scored a 100% retirement rate in the latest Fastnet.




Let's try to work only with as big data basis and best categorizations as possible, trying to come to representative results. Otherwise we may come back again into endless circular discussions.

Certainly

Although this thread is basically about the seaworthiness of all around cruising boats (for which there are not good statistics available but only partial perceptions, as Simpson's one on what kind of boats pass the test of times), big races with they registered boat's data are almost the only basis available and workable. The bad thing, as you say, is sailors becoming less proned to drag a beaten boat around the track.

As most of nowadays Club regattas are not oceanic and usually performed in more or less good weather, tendency for Club boating (and so races entries) has sloped towards faster (lighter) boats. Except for a few 'Corintian' sailors, heavy/medium weighters are abandoning the top regatta fields.

They don't have to. Sunstone (ultra heavy Finnisterre type) is a consistent winner. Love and War (heavy S&S from '73) won the last Hobart. A 1975 heavyweight won the '95 Fastnet. An ancient Rhodes from the '50s won the 2001 Bermuda. A cruising style boat won a class in this year's Fastnet. In other words, the old boats are probably a better chance to win a major race than a new boat!


You have identified only 33 of such boats for the last Fastnet race (although I have some doubts about the inclusion of some of them) out of 271 entries, so only a meagre 12%. Maybe this is not enough basis to come to representative conclusions regarding the performance of heavy weighters.

I think the question still stands: Is this tendency towards lighter boats one of the causes of this high rate of retirements when things get tough?
Most probably it is not the only one (if at all), as I think other variables also influence, as could be the actual availability of accurate weather info and the bigger number of safe havens available to yachts, as well as a possible lower risk-taking profile of average participants. But I would like to be able to 'crawl' in this 'forest' of data and find out if a tendency is detectable or not.

Cheers.

I am glad to see such an open attitude.

It would be very interesting to build information. Maybe we need to launch our own website project? I've done that in windsurfing and it's been succesful.

[Guillermo]

Interesting and atractive idea CT.
Problem is I run three web sites already and actively participate in these forums. In a few days I'll be also the moderator for a fishing vessels safety forum here in Spain. Not to talk about having to dedicate some time to family and job....!
I'm not sure if I'll be able to get involved in a new web site.
Let me think about it.
Cheers.

[Landlubber]

Good long range cruising boats are in the water, not on the water!

I rest my case your honour.

[MikeJohns]

To fit the retirements into any meaningful statistics it would be most helpful to have a simple and basic survey of the skippers reason to abandon the race. I wonder if this could be done through a simple email poll if the organisers would cooperate ? I imagine we need someone in the UK designated as the researcher for this information (contacts) to be forthcoming.
Also here's the S-H DNF's over the more recent years if you want a bigger statistical base.

Sydney -Hobart

		
Year	   Started   Finished  DNF
				
2006		78	69	12%
2005		85	80	6%
2004		116	59	49%
2003		56	52	7%
2002		57	55	4%
2001		75	57	24%
2000		82	58	29%
1999		79	49	38%
1998		115	44	62%
1997		114	99	13%
1996		95	77	19%
1995		98	92	6%
1994		371	309	17%
1993		104	38	63%
1992		110	102	7%
1991		99	91	8%
1990		105	86	18%
1989		126	101	20%
1988		119	81	32%
1987		154	146	5%
1986		123	106	14%
1985		179	146	18%
1984		151	46	70%
1983		173	158	9%
1982		118	108	8%
1981		159	144	9%
1980		102	93	9%

The 98 S-H is still good material for analysis wrt hull design, displacement/length ratios and LPS. Perhaps later. Busy.

[Guillermo]

CT, Mike
Perhaps instead of opening now a devoted web site, which requires a constant and important effort to keep it on running, we should keep on using these forums' pages to begin to work on the idea.

We could open a new thread (this one has become too big already) or probably several threads to divide the work among a group of us. Every one in the group would be the leader of one thread (or more) where to discuss and gather information on one (or more) specific aspect. We may even ask Jeff to open a devoted Forum to host such different threads. Perhaps within the 'Collaboration' section.

As Mike says, we'd need at least one leader in the UK (perhaps Crag Cay), and I think we'd need also at least another one in the USA (perhaps Sponberg), as well as in France (perhaps fcfc). All collaborations would be welcome.

What do you think? How could we divide the work?

Cheers.

P.S. We'd need to gather relevant data basis not only from the big regattas, but also from the cruising grounds. A challenging task.

[Jeff]

We may even ask Jeff to open a devoted Forum to host such different threads. Perhaps within the 'Collaboration' section.

If there is interest in collaborating on such an effort using the forum as the hub, I would be most happy to dedicate a new sub-forum to the project. (unless maybe there a web database application that could be easily adapted to the project that could be more advantageous without itself adding too much complication) But if others feel a sub-forum for this project would be useful, just say the word go and I'll get it added ASAP as this sounds like a good idea.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by CT 249

Vega, the Opens performance was good but as I understand it, the return leg was downwind. Also there was little light air beating, which the Opens do not like. The first Pogo 40 here, owned by a former National champion, has been performing very badly, as do some of our Open 60s. I'm not saying Opens are bad boats, but just pointing out that they and IRC boats are very different and seem to perform in very different ways (as successful Open designers have said to me).

[/quote]

CT, I am very interested in the discussion about different shapes of hull and performance (real time). I say real time because it is the only way you can separate real performance to the one that is artificially obtained by producing a boat that can do greatly under a certain set of handicap rules. A boat can be a winner on handicap and a poor performer if compared in real performance similar size boats, but not favored by that set of rules.

You have a lot of information that can be useful for a fruitful discussion on this issue and the Fastenet Race can provide more.

We can compare up-wind and down-wind times (till the Fastnet rock; From the Fastnet to the Finish).

I am very interested in that information about “your own Open60s” and the absolute performance compared with other boats of the same size.

I am also very interested on Information about the performance of that Pogo too.

Of what boats are you talking about? I don’t know of any new generation Open60’s racing in Australia.

If they are old ones, they just can compare with the new ones.

Take a look at this interesting post by Brian Eiland:

Originally Posted by brian eiland

...courtesy of Tim Jeffery
.....
.... in the last two years, the explosion of interest, budgets and sophistication in the class has been cataclysmic.
...
As Owen points out, old boats which were seemingly ageless now look redundant beside the latest in the class such as Michel Desjoyeaux's Foncia or Mike Golding's Ecover, the latter designed by Owen and Allen Clarke.

You can see the rate of progress in deck and sail systems, hull shapes and a staggering diversity of mast styles, ranging from fully rotating wings supported by great struts projecting from the hull to ruggedised versions of the normal.
...
Golding, one of the race favourites, can plot the progress of the class. The first of his three Open 60s he had over the last 10 years is now Dee Caffari's Aviva. ....It's a huge increase in sail area, a huge increase in power and in terms of sophistication of the boat," Golding says. Whereas Aviva has just a couple of inside ballast tanks to trim the boat, Ecover has 10. "You have more gears basically," he adds.

Note that as I have said on another thread I like narrow boats and I like large transom boats. I like all sailboats that excel in sailing, no matter the shape. If I many times defend boats like the Open 60’s or the Class40 is because sometimes we had in this forum ridiculous affirmations about their seaworthiness or about their ability to go upwind and because the development of the Open60’s in the last couple of years had been fantastic.



Off course this had not to do with seaworthiness, so it will be more appropriated to conduct this discussion on the Stephen Ditmore thread about: “Notable open & development class racers”.



http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...857#post168857

[Guillermo]

CT 249, Mike, Jeff,
Unluckily it seems there is no interest in going on with the collaborative effort suggested. A pity. Anyway I'll keep on working at home on these matters and posting here from time to time. CT, if you open the web site, I'll collaborate.

CT249,
Here something to your content:

"....the Offshore Racing Congress is pleased to announce the formation of a new VPP-based rating rule known as ORC International. This new rule will be ready for use starting in January 2008 and will replace the existing use of the International Measurement System for rating purposes.
...........
Fietje Judel, co-designer with Rolf Volijk of several generations of successful racers and also very active in the administration of the Rule with DSV and ORC thinks the use of the new rule will produce better ratings for the newer boats in the existing fleet as well as make the competition better on the water. “With the change of the name it was clearly required to modernise the old IMS and follow the trend to "sexy" boats,” he said. “Therefore ITC did concentrate their work in achieving this goal. I believe that in the future no one will blame the ORC rules for creating slow, tender and heavy boats. Light displacement and stiff boats with a lot of sail area will be treated considerably better than in the past. They will not achieve a guarantee for winning like sometimes happens with so-called "Low Tech" rules, but a well-campaigned light and stiff boat will now be able to win trophies. So the balance between the typical series production cruiser-racer and the more exciting racing boat has been moved a bit towards the racing yacht, but that does not mean that the "normal" boat has no chance any longer. They can still win, but it will not be as easy as before.”

More at: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/07/1111a/

Cheers.

[Stephen Ditmore]

I've read somewhere that classic yacht racing has become organized, especially in the Med., that they've settled on a handicap system, and that Dennis Conner & Doug Peterson are active participants.

Where can we get accurate information concerning these rules?

Might this morph into a racing class for new cruising designs that meet certain requirements...?

[Vega]

"....the Offshore Racing Congress is pleased to announce the formation of a new VPP-based rating rule known as ORC International. ... “With the change of the name it was clearly required to modernise the old IMS ...

I believe that in the future no one will blame the ORC rules for creating slow, tender and heavy boats.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/07/1111a/


Finally some good sense

[Guillermo]

Probably good sense for the racing fields, that 'sexy' boats thing. To generalize the criteria bringing it to the cruising grounds is nuts, in my humble opinion.

[MikeJohns]

Why not design heavy fast stiff boats? ..........................Because of the cost and under some rules the rating penalty.

The only decent architects who would design slow heavy tender sail boats would be those who saw some rating advantage in such a design.

Much has been made of the Winston Churchill foundering in the Sydney to Hobart to supposedly illustrate that there is no advantage in heavy boats, but she was a racing boat and designed as such to rate well, not to be seaworthy . She also had a very low AVS.