Floating nightmare

[messabout]

People believe what they see with their own eyes. Too many are skeptical or dismissive when verbally instructed by others.

Here is a gadget That I used while teaching a boat safety course. Take a piece of rain gutter or U shaped tin...about 4 feet long. Prop one end up so that the gutter is at about 45 degrees from level. The other end is on the floor. Light a candle and place it on the floor at the opening of the U shaped piece of tin. Wet a rag with one teaspoon of gasoline. Rest the rag at the top end of the U shaped tin. Stand back ! Have fire extinguisher at the ready. In a few seconds the gas vapor will drift to the bottom and the candle will light the vapor and the flame will proceed rapidly to the rag. It makes an impressive and convincing sound to go with the potentially lethal flame. Many people think that gasoline fumes will rise. This demo disabuses them of that myth.

I had a length of one inch pipe. One end had a spark plug welded in. I had an old fashioned Scintilla magneto to provide spark to the plug. Now use an eye dropper to put some gasoline in the open end of the pipe. Place a thermos bottle cork in the open end. Now we have a closed container with a few drops of fuel. Aim the cork end away from the audience. Give the mag one twist and the thing explodes like world war three. Disintegrated cork flew everywhere. The noise was startling to say the least. Seeing is believing !

To the best of my knowledge not one of my audience has ever blown themselves up since the demonstrations.

Heres hoping that you can save your friends ignorant ass from the burn ward.

[Guillermo]

Callinectes,
Tell your friend to read:
http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/bo...FUELSYSTEM.pdf
http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/bo...ENTILATION.pdf
Cheers,

[Guillermo]

Whole USA, 2005:
Almost 13 million boats registered (Several states do not register other than motorboats)
Boats with an engine: 12 million
Inboard installation (including sterndrives): 4 million

Fire/Explosion (Fuel) accidents:

Total events: 148 -- Resulting fatalities: 0
The total rate of accidents is 1.23 every 1000 boats (148/12M)

Of those, accidents with Inboard and I/O installations: 96
Corresponding rate of accidents: 2.4 every 1000 boats (96/4M)


Biggest number (697 in 2005) of fatalities' causes were:

Falling overboard: 213
Capsizing: 199

(Source: http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...stics_2005.pdf)

[Guillermo]

More related with this Stability Forum, it's interesting to note Capsizing as being one of the most important causes of accidents in 2005, with a total number of 466 vessels involved.

Of those, the most important by type of boat, are:
(Vessels involved)
Open motorboat: 216
Canoe/Kayak: 103

Cabin motorboats (29) and auxiliary sailboats (8) seem to not show big numbers, but we'd have to compare against total amount of boats registered in each category, to properly judge.

[alan white]

The only thing the government safety people can't do is actually steer and control the boats. The canoe/kayak statistic is a bit silly, considering kayaks are actually made to roll over, and canoes and kayaks are expected to capsize as a rule. I suppose people who are rescued make up the numbers.
There happens to be an official nearby, and he is bound to make out a report.
I would guess the real kayak/canoe figure is closer to 10,000.

[Guillermo]

Alan,
I think you should read with care the document to find out the filtering used to produce the statistics.

Canoe/Kayak statistics:
127 vessels involved
103 capsized
4 collided with floating object
7 collided with another vessel
1 falls on board
10 falls overboard
1 flooding
1 struck sumberged object

Of those:
64 drownings
14 other deaths
72 injuries.

Cheers.

[alan white]

Yes, that paints an entirely different picture.

[timgoz]

Alan,

Thankfully the "rule" about canoes capsizing is one I choose not to follow.

I've done up to class 3+ whitewater and alot of flatwater canoeing. The only time I have dumped was getting in, twice, non-alchohol related (no excuse), and embarrising.

Take care.

Tim

[charmc]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Alan,
I think you should read with care the document to find out the filtering used to produce the statistics.

Canoe/Kayak statistics:
127 vessels involved
103 capsized
4 collided with floating object
7 collided with another vessel
1 falls on board
10 falls overboard
1 flooding
1 struck sumberged object

Of those:
64 drownings
14 other deaths
72 injuries.

Cheers.

That 64 drownings figure is both silly and ominous. Silly because anyone getting into a canoe without a PFD (lifejacket/vest) is being a silly arse, and ominous for exactly the same reason. I have read countless reports of fatal small boat accidents. Inevitably, there is language to the effect of "he/she was not wearing a lifevest ... ". Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!! The single underlying cause of most small boat accidents is: STUPIDITY.

Training is available everywhere, but so few take advantage of it.

[lazeyjack]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Recreational Accidents 2000
Florida 1994 – 2000
1194 total accidents involving 1738 vessels
3/19/2001

By Type of Accident
Based on first harmful event as determined by the officer
Rec Cruising .................................... 1060
Rec Fishing ........................................117
Commercial Purpose ..............................52
Skiing .................................................24
Making Repairs ....................................18
Fueling ..............................................13
Boat Pulling Tube ................................12
Starting Engine ....................................12
Racing ..............................................10
Swimming/ Snorkeling ............................ 9
Scuba Diving ....................................... 8
Hunting ..............................................3
Tournament ........................................2

By Type of Accident
Based on second harmful event as determined by the state reviewing authority
Fall Overboard ..................................127
Capsizing .......................................... 56
Fall In Boat ...................................... 45
Sinking ............................................ 43
Struck By Boat (Person) ......................41
Collision With Fixed Object ...................32
Flooding (Swamping). ..........................29
Fall on PWC .......................................24
Collision With Vessel ............................14
Struck by Skeg/ Prop ...........................12
Vessel Wake Damage ...........................12
Fire Explosion (Fuel) ............................10
Collision With Floating Object/ Person ....10
Grounding ..........................................9
Struck Underwater Object .....................2
Skier Hit Object ....................................1
Other .................................................1


By activity at the moment of Accident
Cruising ......................................... .. 678
Changing Direction .......................... ...342
Docked (Moored) ............................. ...199
At Anchor .........................................104
Docking/ Undocking ..............................80
Changing Speed ...................................79
Drifting ............................................... 75
Other ................................................. 60
Wake/ Surf Jumping .............................. 26
Sailing ................................................ 12
Launching/ Loading ................................. 8
Being Towed ......................................... 2
Towing A Boat .......................................3
Rowing/ Paddling .................................... 3


May we asume a proportion of 10 in 1194 (0.84%) as explosions related with engine starting? (No fuel is discriminated, but I asume it is gasoline in almost all cases).

This is not enough info, as we do not know how many of those 1738 vessels had an engine. Anyhow explosions related absolute numbers seem to be not very high. Now, asuming those accidents were related with inboards rather than with outboards, we should know the number of boats with an inboard gasoline engine registered in Florida those years. And from those, which ones do have 'car type installations' and/or not blowers, etc. That would be the most significative statistic we'd need to be able to give a based opinion on its dangerouness.

(Please be aware I strongly defend all and every safety measures to be taken with gasoline installations)

From the point of view of stability, I tend to agree with PAR on the small influence of the moved exhaust and removed foam.

Cheers.

I go along with NO regulations at all, as long as one endangers no one else, the world is full of rules, boating should have none, except the rules of the road)
i can not SAIL my boat into a harbour, means I MUST have an engine? bah!! besides gas engines inboard shud be banned)

[alan white]

Boy am I with you on that one, LJ. Too many rules. I do not wear a PFD sailing or canoeing. My daughter always did, of course, anywhere near water.
But an adult makes a decision, and when you treat adults like children, where does it stop? A Mainer driving west to the White Mountains to free-climb vertical ice nervously pulls his seat belt across his shoulder as he enters a town.
People do dumb things, Gord bless'em, but get this----- people have natural balancing mechanisms in their heads. Statistics show that a lot of safety gear causes people to relax more, as if now that they're safer, they can ease off on being attentive. I know I drive best when my tires are bad, or I didn't get an inspection sticker on time.
I think the regulations have gone too far. It is as if quality of life means nothing compared to absolute safety at any cost.
A case in point is the common plexi table saw guard. Mine go into the trash as soon as I buy the saw. It is safer, I think, for a novice to use saw guards, but when I work, I am AWAKE and concentrating. I need to see my cut, and not by peeking under a guard (essentially negating it). I never trust a saw, either, as poorly designed blades (can I say Freud here?) can grab wood and shoot you with it. The sensitivity to feel this is about to happen is lost if one's eyes, nose, mouth, ears, and hands are covered. This is a lot like sex, actually. I will risk a small cut, burn, or scratch just to get the job done, but my hands never get within six inches of a spinning blade. I see guys do it (one who I watched slice his thumb in half), but I always use sticks with hooks on the ends.
How could I survive an OSHA inspection? I remember a jobsite, house construction, fined $5000.00 by OSHA for not having a railing around the second floor when framing it. And where's the railing for the railing installer?
Boats are the same. Never before in history has the average person had as much safety information at his fingertips. If he doesn't care to read it, or learn how to tie ropes... the crime is he might have kids aboard.
I take exception with regards to kids. They trust their parents know best, but we both know people do some pretty foolish things.
I would say, your own adult life belongs to no one but you. If some crazy fool wants to risk his own neck, as long as there're no kids around to get hurt, by God, let him at it. Let's not be fining people for silly things like not having a PFD on board, or not wearing a seat belt, or, for that matter, getting high on hallucinagens. Protect children, do not make children out of adults.

Sorry, I got carried away, but this topic does that to me.

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by alan white

....I would say, your own adult life belongs to no one but you. If some crazy fool wants to risk his own neck, as long as there're no kids around to get hurt, by God, let him at it. ...

Alan,
this has been thoroughly discussed in these forums before. Of course everyone is (or should be) a master of his/her own life. The problem is when you stupidly risk the lives of other because of your acts, children and other adults, of course, but also rescuers'. Or when attempting to rescue you at a situation created by your own stupidity costs an undue amount of money.

Nowadays rescuing services tend to be rather good an efficient, saving lives in situations simply not considered as a possibility a few tenths of years ago. And they will try to go to rescue you, as soon as you have called for help, or somebody has realized you're in distress, wherever you are in the world. Ask Bullimore....
Cheers.

[alan white]

I understand. Still, the cost of rescue (not to mention risk) is, to me, not an automatic reason for laws that protect people from themselves. We call this a "slippery slope", a trend that becomes an endless morass of regulations and punishments, licenses, registrations, inspections, taxes, the list goes on.
So while I totally agree that it is unfair that a person should be allowed to endanger themselves and then have to be rescued, thunk of this: There is no safety course for the homeowner to be allowed to buy a chainsaw or a nail gun. And as soon as you begin to regulate those things, why not require people to fill out a form that tells authorities what parents have been feeding their children. Diabetes is a huge killer.
The point is that it is possible we are creating a society of people who are dependant on laws to keep them safe. If there's no law against it, it must be safe. But we both know where this leads. In every case, we lose more of our freedom. We will never get it back, you know. Regulations always increase, but have you ever heard of even a completely useless regulation being reversed?
So yes, you are right in saying people endanger other people. And I am saying, anyone who rescues people chose their job and is paid to do it and in fact I know a few rescuers and to tell the truth, they really enjoy risk.
If someone causes needless risk, and isn't rescued, that's fine too.
It would be nice if regulations didn't make life overly complicated, but in fact regulations have pretty much destroyed the simplicity of life. It is time to begin to recognize that there is a point (well passed years ago) where enough is enough. Laws have two effects, and one of them is an erosion of freedom.

[lazeyjack]

Originally Posted by alan white

I understand. Still, the cost of rescue (not to mention risk) is, to me, not an automatic reason for laws that protect people from themselves. We call this a "slippery slope", a trend that becomes an endless morass of regulations and punishments, licenses, registrations, inspections, taxes, the list goes on.
So while I totally agree that it is unfair that a person should be allowed to endanger themselves and then have to be rescued, thunk of this: There is no safety course for the homeowner to be allowed to buy a chainsaw or a nail gun. And as soon as you begin to regulate those things, why not require people to fill out a form that tells authorities what parents have been feeding their children. Diabetes is a huge killer.
The point is that it is possible we are creating a society of people who are dependant on laws to keep them safe. If there's no law against it, it must be safe. But we both know where this leads. In every case, we lose more of our freedom. We will never get it back, you know. Regulations always increase, but have you ever heard of even a completely useless regulation being reversed?
So yes, you are right in saying people endanger other people. And I am saying, anyone who rescues people chose their job and is paid to do it and in fact I know a few rescuers and to tell the truth, they really enjoy risk.
If someone causes needless risk, and isn't rescued, that's fine too.
It would be nice if regulations didn't make life overly complicated, but in fact regulations have pretty much destroyed the simplicity of life. It is time to begin to recognize that there is a point (well passed years ago) where enough is enough. Laws have two effects, and one of them is an erosion of freedom.

IT IS why I spend so much time in russia and turkey, nobody check me, I feel, free
you know we have cops on jetskis here with speedcams
NZ does not have licencing for boats, people won't allow it
Aussies are whimps, they let every damn rule go through
they sue , worse than USA, and thats official.
We are all responsible for letting our freedom go
As Alan said, nobody ever reversed a rule
I actually am scared to start a bizz here
i ride my bike, (pedals) without a helmet, I get fined Sick of it, born 200 years too late) When I go sailing again, I will have a boat hurricane proof, (apart from rig)_ and I will make it a rule, I will not call for help

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by alan white

.. in fact regulations have pretty much destroyed the simplicity of life...

Yeap!
But we are every time more and more people claiming angrily for the same rights, suing others, etc....As Stu says, we have born too late in a too old world.....And we do not have to forget insurance companies, also claiming and suing....
World has become too small a long time ago. What can we do? Become monks in a Tibet's sanctuary or the like...? Escape to a lonely star...? I'm afraid we have to stay here and live with it. As well as fight against excessive regs, OK, but how....?
Cheers.