Boat Capsize Evidence

[Fanie]

Sachi,
Imo for that length hulls the beam should have been around 7m and not for double the passengers, but specifically so it won't capsize. If it was two meters wide for instance it would capsize much easier. You can calculate the capsize moment wrt the beam width. I just use my female instinct with these things.

[PAR]

Unfortunately, in your part of the world, having standards and accepted practices in place for protections against unsafe designs or operation, is shall we say is "lacking".

As I mentioned very early in this thread, we just haven't a clue what this is all about. Now we have a hint and things are about as I suggested.

Now, I'm dieing to see a picture of the boat, just to confirm what we all must be envisioning about now.

After a quick search of capsizes in Malaysia, I found none (no news story, which in itself is interesting) that suggested an 80 passenger vessel capsized, but did come across several dating back to 2003, all of which were over loaded, most in "rough" conditions.

This leaves one to conclude that Sachi, needs to be more specific (date of incident, name of boat, location of incident, etc.) so we can get a real picture of what's going on.

[Ad Hoc]

Sachi

If you're serious about your quest, then look at the stability book for the vessel. That will tell you who designed it, which class/flag state surveyed/approved her, what standards it is to meet etc etc.

[Guillermo]

USA's 46 Code of Federal Regulations, Subchapter S, Part 171.
http://cfr.vlex.com/source/1095/toc/01.17
(if aplicable in your country. Most probably you should have specific criteria for that kind of small domestic passengers vessel, issued by your national authorities)

Hire a naval architect and ask him/her to perform an stability test to the boat (if not lost) and recalculate to find if your country's mandatory stability criteria are met, including maximum allowed turning heel. If boat has been lost, then the NA can revise the whole stability booklet of the boat to search for possible faulty calculations if there are any.

This may also be of interest to you:
http://www.ukshipregister.co.uk/mast...t_10-11-08.pdf

[pistnbroke]

did not read all the thread but why is your insurance company not dealing with it .....Public liability etc ...did these people pay to go aboard .??

[CowMan]

The analysis of the boat is involved, but fairly straight forward: raise the boat, pull the lines, then incline it. Even with a copy of the stability book, if one exists, and original inclining data, if it exists, boats tend to get heavier over time (ships constant), and accurate lightship & VCG data would be essential in determining if an overload condition existed. Stability criteria to apply would be, at a minimum, the standards required by your local flag state - small craft regs can be snarly.

Your best bet is to find a firm to conduct a stability analysis of the vessel. It would be foolhardy for them to assign blame, but it gives you something to take to a lawyer (who are in the profession of determining blame). FWIW, I would feel a bit uncomfortable in a 14m x 4m boat with more than 50 or 60 people sitting, let alone 80 potentially roaming.

[Tim B]

There have been several similar incidents, some involving loss of life, and I can only see a few possible explanations of it.

1) There are boatbuilders who do a cut and shut job with no interest in safety.
2) There are designers who just want to make a quick buck, and they've renamed and moved the company by the time anything happens.
3) There are operators who are not willing to pay for good design work, and who will deny all responsibility that they had sub-standard work done.

We are looking at low-speed calm water craft here. The calculation for maximum heeling moment before a generic hull capsizes is VERY simple (as in 1st year Naval Arch degree simple). Working out the maximum heeling moment from passengers is VERY simple. Working out the wind, wave and maneuvering heeling moments is a little harder, but anybody calling themselves a designer should be able to do it. So developing an operational envelope is not really that hard. Operation outside that envelope is not guaranteed, and is done at the operators own risk.

What concerns me is the number of "designers" around who have no apparent experience of any sort. We have seen quite a few questions on this forum along the lines of "I want to design a boat, but how do I calculate the bouyancy?". I mean come on, guys, this is the 21st Century! Surely we understand the capsize mechanism in flat water well enough to make sure that this sort of thing doesn't happen.

There is really no excuse for these incidents.
End Rant.

Tim B.

[Fanie]

Well Tim, if a guy is a newby and knows nothing it's still ok if he's willing to learn something. What worries me is the guy that thinks he's clever and knows enough to just build. Then when there's a problem afterwards he'll never admit he's the idiot.

Even worse is when he sells this boat to someone else who has no idea that there is a problem.

[Alik]

Originally Posted by Tim B

1) There are boatbuilders who do a cut and shut job with no interest in safety.
2) There are designers who just want to make a quick buck, and they've renamed and moved the company by the time anything happens.
3) There are operators who are not willing to pay for good design work, and who will deny all responsibility that they had sub-standard work done.

Overload is most widespread reason of loss of stability; not builder and designer.

[dskira]

Originally Posted by Fanie

Well Tim, if a guy is a newby and knows nothing it's still ok if he's willing to learn something. What worries me is the guy that thinks he's clever and knows enough to just build. Then when there's a problem afterwards he'll never admit he's the idiot.

Even worse is when he sells this boat to someone else who has no idea that there is a problem.

I think you point out the worst scenario very well. And it happened unfortunatly.
the problems is these people is they open the door for more regulation, and more scrutinity from the gouvernement push paper.
Look at what happens in Europe with the CE regulation going out of hand.
And honnestly when a guy say: "I know nothing but I want to design a boat, which free program can I download", that creep me out.
One day I will post: "I know nothing but I want to make an open heart surgery, what knife I can have for free" It is that stupid!
Cheers
Daniel

No ****, Alik. Tim, your rant surredly is misplaced. There had to be some sort of stability letter, at least, if it carried passengers. If it was not designed to carry passengers for hire, in my world, it had a plaque that said how many. The last person I would fire upon with the available information is the designer. People were ranting about the Lake George, NY incident with the Ethan Allen in '05, too. The boat was rated for 14 and had 47 + crew aboard according to the report I read...

[Tim B]

Well, not really. It is applicable to the operators as well. My point is that at the moment there seems to be cases where there is no legislation whatsoever. Now if everybody is conscientious about the design and operation of a vessel, this is fine. However, there are few cases where this clearly hasn't been the case (who knows how many more which haven't gone wrong yet?) and in my view that is unacceptable given the level of understanding we have in the subject.

Alik & Fanie, agreed, the operator may not be aware, but it's good business sense to check if you're unsure isn't it? The designer's fee is going to be a lot less than the lawyers.

dskira, I agree the EU regs are a PITA, but at least they are written along the right lines, and have provided the industry with a baseline sanity check if nothing else.

Cheers all,

Tim B.

[Fanie]

Plaques doesn't say much. Any one can put his own one on there.

Imo, who ever takes a crowd out on the water is reponsible for the safety of the lot. You want to be the big important boss in charge and pocket the mega bucks you take the responsibility. If you don't want to then don't go out.

You know, I got on a ferry in Phuket with my new bride once. It was disorganized, filthy, oily, disgusting in every way. I took a peek in the engine space and there were wires and pump lines running every-which-way. The bilge had maybe 40cm of oily water. I started to look around and there were so many people packing on this ferry that I grabbed my wife and started to head off - but the ferry was disembarking AND people were still boarding. Starting to think of options, I told my wife that under no circumstances were we going indoors, I asked a deckhand the distance to Koh Phi Phi and he replied "a few kilometers", so expert swimmers both - I relaxed. I'm going to guess fifty kilometers later, we arrived. Was this the designer's fault? To me, it looked like the boat could have been ok at some time but way overloaded, slack water in the bilge, nothing ship-shape, I felt lucky. It got worse. We waited for a lightly loaded boat to go to Aonang Krabi, rode there and had to get off with way too many people and bags on a gol-darned longtail, prop flailing, waves lapping at the gunwales. My point is that things are done differently in the third world and the use of the boat may be vastly different than what the designer intended.

Yes, those plaques have always seemed like "too many", but a starting point.