Planning to build a chesapeake 20' sharpie - any comments

Hi there

I have just registered on the forum. From the threads that I have read it looks like someone might be able to help.

I am looking to start lofting the 20' chesapeake sharpie p293, Boatbuilding, Chapelle, over Christmas and start building in the new year. I have built and restored a number of cold moulded and stich and tape boats, but I am keen to give up the glue and start building real wood boats.

Can anyone help me with the following
1. Is the design suitable for a keen real wood novice?
2. Does anyone know of boats built to these plans?
3. I live in the UK and would like to build the boat using local timber (whilst I would like to stay true to the plans, it doesn't seem right to buy wood that has been shipped across the atlantic, when you have a forest at the back of your garden) - would Larch be a suitable replacement for the Cedar specified??
4. How wide should the side planks be?
5. Should the centreboard case have a cap to stop water coming up when going at speed, or a slot a gasket??
6. Are these boats ever built with thwarts for rowing? I was planning on removing the deck aft of the centreboard (suitably reinforcing everything) and including a thwart like the Maryland Crabbing Skiff in American Small Craft. I would also like to put another thwart in but that can wait until the boat is lofted.
7. Plan to use it for the Great Glen Raid, sail and oar race across Scotland lochs. Would the boat be suitable for rowing and sailing (fast), looks like it should?

Look forward to any help that you can give,

Thanks

Giles

Sharpie

Feast your eyes on this unit.

http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=SailBoats/South

Yes both of the Chapelle designs have been built, many times. I've quite familiar with them, having grown up in the area and knew Howard before he passed.

I'd recommend a plywood version, rather then the planked one shown. He admitted having an unjustifiable bias against plywood (he called it laminated wood) which he relented on in the last years of his life. A plywood sharpie can be water proof.

WoodenBoat magazine had one of his sharpie drawings in the October issue. A full set of plans (there wasn't much to them) was shown.

These boats were fast, but skip the vertical reefs too, while we're in the mood for changes. A Bermudian cat ketch with the mizzen well aft is a handy craft, you'll do well in the raid.

These boats were crossed planked on the bottom and if sailed lightly they didn't leak, but if sailed hard or a motor added they leak like a pea strainer. Cross planked hulls don't like to live on trailers either, so it's a consideration worth thinking about.

Side planks should be lined off for a reasonable appearance and to fit the available width stock (not an issue with plywood)

The centerboard case should be capped.

The sharpies I sailed as a young man didn't have thwarts, but who's to say they couldn't? Insure the athwartship strength is restored when making this change.

Par
I have found many of the posts you have written very imformative as well as very accurate.
I have to take you to task here though. You say you are pushing 50, as am I.
You state you knew Howard Chapelle? He died in 1975. That would make you and I between 18 or 19 years old.
The brief bio in "Yacht Designing and Planning" doesn't mention any time spent in the swamps of Florida.
Are you one of those people who makes **** up for the sake of talking?
I've totally lost respect for you and your posts unless you can substantiate your connection to "Howard"

I'm now soon to be 51, I moved to Florida In the late 80's, left for a while and came back and was raised on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake Bay. I've also lived in many other locations in this country, Chicago, Kentucky, Southern California, Marco Island, USVI St. Thomas to name a few.

I was too young at the time to realize who he actually was, but I knew he was important some how. I'd not read any of his books yet, nor was much on design or American sailing lineage. I wanted to go fast, could care less about a particular work boat's lines, let alone it's heritage and evolution. I found him to be brilliant, arrogant, very passionate about what he was trying to do (which I didn't care about then). He took an interest in my brashness at a club party and seemed to want to share the volumes of knowledge stored in his head in a much younger man (I was just out of the army and full of spit) I liked him but was much more interested in the keg on the deck outside.

You have no idea how bad I've kicked myself over years thinking about that. I've since changed considerably and now am quite expert on American sail evolution and understand design and construction methods. Chandler, run down to Friendship (are you close to there?) and go to the Friendship museum. There you will find a CD with several Friendship related books and essays on it. My contribution was an article on the development of the Friendship sloop from it's work boat beginnings to the yacht known today. Okay, so we wouldn't be meeting, but you can read some of my writing and a few of my lines drawings. It doesn't prove diddly about Howard Chapelle, but our first meeting was in Rehoboth, Delaware in the early 70's, our last was in Ocean City Maryland (I think) maybe in '74. I think he died in Rehoboth.

Please accept my apology Par.

PAR
I must commend you on a beautifully executed response. You took a potential dung flinging match and difused it in a calm and intelligent manner. Rarely seen on the internet.

I often think of the characters I have met in my life that I would like to go back and talk to again. Not having taken the time to take advantage of the vast collection of knowledge that was available.

Youth really is wasted on the young.

PAR Thanks for the advice - do they really leak?? and more questions

PAR

Thanks for replying, sorry I haven't replied earlier but had some computer problems, boat building and christmas that got in the way.

I have almost built a big hefty strongback, got tools together and am ready to start lofting.

So now I need to get some wood.

You said that a cross planked sharpie is going to leak and suffer on a trailer. Is this the case with a diagonal cross planked vee bottom sharpie?

I am keen to build it with real wood as I am using this as a learning exercise for real wood building, ideally the boat after this is the New York Bay Skiff (American Small Craft), although it is probably a bit too challenging, can but dream. Do you really think that cross planked bottom is a bad idea??

A new issue that is irritating me is the keel. Does it need to have the middle of the tree running down it, 'boxed in' I think it is called. I always thought that this was for big boats, however saw a number of sketches in a book for small craft recently that showed the grain like this on the keel. Is this required on a small craft of is it just artistic license from the author?

Also fastenings - Chapelle specifyies galvanised iron. I am assume that this would be boat nails, driven into drilled holes but not clenched. I can get hold of some hot dipped galvanised steel nails, made specifically for boat building will these do?

All thoughts gratefully received.

Regards

Giles

File planking, cross planking and diagonal cross planking are the same thing, the bottom planking goes on athwartship, rather then fore and aft.

File planking is a very traditional way (and most cost efficient use of materials) but in power boats it was quickly changed to fore and aft planking, because they leaked like bottomless buckets.

If you're thinking about building one of Chapelle's plans, published in one of is books, be for warned that he took "liberties" in the lines of many of the vessels. This was partly out of necessity, partly out of making the type proper in his way of thinking. Many of the boats he took lines from were wrecks, dieing on a forgotten section of beach, badly distorted and coming apart. He did try to get good examples of the type he was after, but sometimes there may have been few to choose from. So, he would remove the "hog" roll the bilges back in and other things he felt necessary to get the "shape" as he figured it might be. On other occasions he made out and out changes to the shape of the hull, maybe to make it "sweeter" or more to his beliefs, but though he may have had fine examples of a particular type he still did so.

Now I've raised some eye brows and pissed off a few die hards, but I'm not the first to speak in such terms.

The other thing I think should be pointed out is he was a fine draftsman and yacht designer. His "modifications" would likely help the type, not hurt, though they haven't stood the test of time the originals did.

Lastly, these are antique boat types, Giles and they aren't built as we do today. They don't sail like boats of today do either. A modern version in the style of the boat you desire would be a better way to go for several reasons, safety and material advantages being just a few. Chapelle's scantlings can be adhered to, but fasteners can be of better materials then what was commonly available then. You can use galvanized nails and screws, but the boat will not be long lived. The act of banging a nail into a board will knock the galvanizing off the head. Sharp threads on a hot dipped screw doesn't exist. Many of the materials and equipment should be reviewed for updates to currently available stuff. For example 3/4" cedar planking can be replaced with 3/8" plywood and save a little weight in the bargain. If using the plywood, then you can save yourself the effort of file planking. There are many places about the elements of any boat design from the glory days of sail that can be modernized, without ruining the vessel. You'd be wise to take advantage of it. It should also be noted that the plans shown in his books are not complete. You're lucky to get lines, offsets and a construction drawing, but this can't get mistaken for a full set.


About your lumber and other building questions, you are in dire need of several good books, incorporating more current building practices. There are many books available and you can't have enough.

thanks again for your comments.

I will review using more modern materials. Regarding books, I keep on buying them but they often seem to miss the detail. What I need to do is go and learn from some one, but unfortunately I have to work. I know that the easiest way and probably the best way to build the craft is ply and epoxy, but what I am after is learning about how to work with real wood, etc. If this means I result in a more expensive and inferior boat then I guess that is something I will have to be aware of and consider throughout the build.

Regards

Giles

Read 'The Sharpie Book' by Reuel Parker - its got a lot of info about exactly what you are asking :idea:

Andy

Andy

Great idea, I have read it cover to cover, inside out and back to front. Thing is after getting into it, and at the same time building a ply epoxy canoe, I discovered Chapelle's books. I ended up concluding that ply epoxy isn't that much fun, especially building in the UK in an unheated shed, and that it may be more fun to build one with real wood. So it is issues surrounding real wood that I am trying to sort.

Must admit I am getting concerned about the comments regarding, leaking cross planked bottoms, and not being able to trailer them. umm... back to the sharpie book maybe?

Also I seem to remember that if I build to old plans then the craft is exempt from the Recreational Craft Directive and I can sell it if anyone wants to buy it. If I build to Parker's plans then I guess I would have to get it RCD approved if I wanted to sell it, or wait a number of years, can't remeber how many at the moment.

Giles

I'm not sure what the RCD is all about, but plywood boats have much to offer and also (just like everything else in yacht design) have draw backs. Stitch and glue or tape and seam plywood craft, usually don't leak, as they are a homogenous structure. Traditional methods (file planking, etc.) rely on different techniques to remain water tight and usually can't compete with the glued seam construction methods for dryness and reliability. On the other side of the coin, ply boats can look "box like" and are limited in shapes available to the designer. They typically have a lower resale value and in some areas a bad reputation.

Plywood craft are generally faster to build, but may be more costly in materials. Plywood require lots of goo and fabrics to protect them which are additional costs traditional construction doesn't need. Traditional methods can present you with a more shapely boat, reverse curves, tumble home, dramatic flair, etc. which are difficult to achieve in plywood.

In the end, most opt for plywood for a number of reasons. Ease of build, availably of stock, long life of well coated material, light weight frameless construction, and a dry boat to name a few. Traditional construction permits sexier hull shapes, traditional looks with beams and frames visible, the limited amount of goo use (if needed at all) make some folks pick these right off the top, plus a number of other advantages.

You'll have to decide what you want from your build and the end result, the boat itself. Most of the older Chapelle designs can be converted to modern methods, but this should be done with a level of expertise you don't current own. This is why I recommend a set of plans that have the conversion completed already.

PAR thanks again for your thoughts. I do appreciate the benefits of ply epoxy. The epoxy bit especially as I used to work in a composite design and manufacture company. Come to think of it, that maybe why I am so keen to build in wood even with its draw backs.

You said I was in dire need of some books, I have a fair stack, can you recommend any specifically that would help someone with building a sharpie traditionally?

I think I understand why a sharpie driven hard may start to leak. I guess it is due to the cross planked hull not having any significant longitudinal framing (except for the keel and the chine log). Resulting in hull sagging and the seams opening up. If this is the mechanism then I have read about some craft having sister keelsons fitted either side of the keel. If the boat started to leak significantly when raced would it be possible to retro fit these?

What causes the damage to the bottom when trailering? Is it the lack of framing linking the bottom of the hull to the sides, or just loosening the caulking in the bottom seams, or some other mechanism?? Do you think it would be possible to construct a trailer that minimised any damage??

Giles

The power sharpies that were file planked leaked quickly. There were several reasons for this, a lot relating to the scantlings of these designs being for the press of a spread of sail, rather then the retro fitted engines that were placed in their bilges. Longitudinal strength is limited in typical file planking methods. Stringers, heavier keels, planking and chine logs can help this to some degree, but the planks were not intended to be "racked" as hard as they are with an engine installed.

The solution was found a hundred years ago, fore and aft planked bottoms on power sharpies. It's not as difficult as it may seem. These aren't big boats so planking up the bottom wouldn't be a major divorce starter. How about a solid plywood bottom and a traditional topsides, deck and framing? You can have your traditional build, use a magic marker to "paint" file plank seams on the plywood bottom (who'd know) and she'd stay tighter, live on a trailer better and be lighter to boot.

The problem with most traditional structures on trailers is they require moisture content in the wood to keep the joints tight. Not just water tight (though this is helpful) but tight enough to permit the boat to retain its shape. Living on a trailer is a difficult life for any boat and particularly so for traditionally built ones. They just weren't designed for the additional loading trailering imparts on the structure. In 1890 the boat was dragged down to the wet and shoved in, a day or so before it was needed. It sucked up and was ready to use in a few days. They were used hard, built cheaply and tossed away for a new one every other year. You have to remember these were quick and inexpensive to produce, disposable boats. Currently, we couldn't live with the idea of tossing out a boat, we'd just completed a couple of years earlier. Modern materials and techniques can help many of the issues that haunt these boats. If you want one to last, it must be considered. It's difficult to ask them to be what they can't. These and other elements of traditional yacht building and ownership force difficult decisions on the modern skipper.

It's not the trailer at issue, but the way the boat is engineered. You can't ask a structure that was designed to be wet in service to live well with wet/dry cycling without problems. The same is true, in asking this structure to tolerate being embalmed in goo, in an effort to keep it dry. A trailered boat should be designed to be trailered. As a rule, these antique designs aren't intended for this, so problems will arise. A cotton bedded trailer will help a small amount, but it's the boat that has the problem and the trailer can't fix it.

Some have suggested splining the file planks helps, other attempts were double file planked bottoms, but new problems come up and they don't really address the true issues. Timber boats, need to be wet to work well.