return of sails in era of expensive oil, enviro. regs?

I wonder if anyone is aware of ship designers who are exploring reintegrating sails into commercial boats of any sort as a response to climbing oil prices and environmental concerns. I have heard of this trend from a knowledgeable source and would love to find some examples... this is for a magazine story.

Feel free to contact me via my e-mail through my profile...

 

I fear not.

Check http://www.setsail.com/dashew/Operating_Costs.html

For a pleasure craft, sail won't be competitive on operating costs before oil reach 200 $ barrel.

And then, nuclear which *ALREADY* powers some huge military crafts will be
more competitive.

Sails on some commercial cruisers are more of a marketing argument for passengers than anything else.

 

Well here's one example in a Gamefishing vessel ....fishing for sail under sail. Acually I'm receiving quite a few inquiries from commerical charter guys that are experiencing these BIG fuel price increases. Also http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1548&highlight=gamefishing

Then you might have a look at the new Maltese falcon concept, originally conceived of by the German government for commercial purposes. A more technical analysis,
http://ctr.stanford.edu/ResBriefs02/doyle.pdf

Finally a little discussion of fuel prices for recreational vessels, http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=552

 

Brian, that catamaran looks like a wonderful idea. I don't know much about gamefishing, but at first glance it looks great.

As far as general commercial use goes -- how much does fuel cost matter, compared to capital investment, crew, moorage, general maintenance, etc? For example, commercial fisherman I've talked to don't complain about fuel, but about their boat payment.

I do think the sail potential for cruise ships is tremendous. Some friends of mine cruised on Le Ponant last spring:

http://tinyurl.com/6t6xt

Lifelong sailors (and cruise-shippers), they said there was nothing like storming out of Venice at 18 knots under full sail on a vessel like this.

I've seen a couple of blurbs in the last year about using kites to power cargo ships. They'd probably work well on the open ocean, in the trades. They could be deployed with a minimum of crew and equipment. Other than that, oil may be "expensive," but it's still probably cheaper than sail equipment and manpower.

Nuclear power is a wonderful idea for a peaceful world, but we're not there yet. We'd need constant military protection of our merchant fleet, which is certainly no improvement over the current situation.

 

Return of sail?

Actually, I think it is already happening. I see this in the concept of "trawler yachts" ("tug") yachts too). It has been noted at least once around here that trawler yachts are moving to higher performance, from semi displacement speeds to full plaining. This, at first glance, may seem like it's all going the wrong way. To an extent I agree. However, I also recognize that this may mean that there is now a market for lower performance plaining hulls rather than one for higher performance semiplaining hulls.

Part of what leads me to this suspicion is the emergence of what may come to be called 'troller yachts'. These boats can only travel at displacement speeds. One of the main designers of these boats is George Buehler with his growing "diesel duck" design portifolio. He has claimed that he has never had so much work in his life. Another designer of similar boats is Jay benford with his "small ship" series.

The next step in this evolution will be adding sails to such craft. First as 'steadying sails' which will grow larger and larger as diesel becomes more and more expensive. Eventually, these craft will become nothing but undersparred sailing craft with ample auxlliarys. Such craft have existed before. They were designed by the likes of William Hand and John C. Hanna (of 'tahiti ketch' fame) in the 1920's and '30's (when technology was moving the other way). I have already seen one example of this. It was in a magazine devoted to passage making (ocean crossing) power boats. It had a cut down sloop rig that would only be effective in a fresh breeze (by then the engine could be shut down). Such a rig would be much sturdier than a full sloop rig on a 'pure' (80% or more) sailboat. It can be a powerboat until such wind arises as to make sailing convenient. I see much merit in thias concept. In fact, I am working on a design for a narrow 12ft scow with a short sailing rig. It will have a short (easy to stow) sweep which will first be used on one side then the other. The relatively large (by powerboat standards) rudder will be used by the other hand to keep it on course.

For work boats such as commercial fishing boats, tugs, and supply boats, I see this developement being much slower. The reason for this is because fish (in the case of fishermen) and work (in the case of the others), is an even faster depleting resource than petroleum. Now (and in the near future) the emphasis will be on getting to the work first rather than getting there more efficiently. Some commercial fishing boats are now semi-plaining (10 to 20 hp/ton) or even plaining (50 and up hp/ton) for this reason.

As for shipping, I see the reaction heading first toward ever larger container and bulk vessels. The reason for this is because greater length always means greater fuel/ton/mile ratios. The reaso for this is that a 900ft vessel has the same hp/ton needs as a 300ft vessel. At sub-displacement speeds, the 300ft vessel can travel at approxiately 13kts (more likely 9) and the 900ft vessel can travel at approximately 22kts (more likely 15). This will make the 900ft vessel about 70% more efficient than the 300ft vessel (the added resistence due to length and the diminishing resistance due to relativly smaller sea conditions tend to cancel each other out).

There will be, of course, circumstances where larger ships will not be practical. Such will be the case in island hopping trade such as in the Hawiians, The Aluetians, Indonesia, Polynisea, the Japans, and others. Larger vessels may not be able to clear the local reefs. For this reason and that of much smaller cargo requirements, smaller vessels (in the 100 to 300ft range) will have to be used. The operators of these vessels will, as time goes on, have much incentive to add 'helper sails' to them so long as they don't, uneconomically hinder loading and off loading operations. As fuel becomes ever more expensive, I expect the design compromises to tend more and more to greater sailing effeciency and less and less to greater loading and off loading efficiency (man power is only relatively expensive when energy is cheap). I do not expect to see the return of the pure sailing ship because I don't see the cost of combustable fuel ever reaching such a point that completely eliminating engines will ever become an economical option. It must be remembered that the passing of those vessels was mourned as much by those who actually worked them as that of large plaining vessels will be mourned by those of the eviormental crowd.

Bob

 

"Le ponant" is 290 ft length, 56 passengers, 30crew. Cruise for 9 days / 8 nigths starts at 4200$ / person.

Sails are not an economical way to travel, just a marketing differenciation to attract wealth people.

For "troller yachts", the important point is where do theses "new" owners come from ? Did they traded a sailboat for a troller boat ? Or did they switched their planning cruiser for the troller, or are they real newcomers, with no boat before ?

There are much more powerboats designed for attracting "older" sailors that sailboats designed to attract powerboats owners with fuel bill problem.

 

The Japanese are already on it - 1986..

Hello...

http://www.dcss.org/speedsl/Trans_Sailcraft.html ...

http://www.dcss.org/speedsl/current_sail.html ...

http://www.dcss.org/speedsl/cashflow.html ...

http://www.dcss.org/speedsl/KiteTugs.html ...

http://www.dieselducks.com/sail-backup.html ...

Largest Kite Ever Built to Power Cruise Ship - http://www.mglobal.com/news/environmental.cfm ...

http://www.solarnavigator.net/catamaran_model_under_sail.htm ...

OK I am bored...

 

And then there are the folk at http://www.kiteship.com/, whose ultimate goal is to build giant kites for sailing oil tankers.

 

You've probably been talking to only fishermen in this country (US). Wait a little while until they realize that the prices aren't going back down as they have in the past. And then add one or two disruptions of supply into the equation and I believe you will find the commerical guys REAL interested in cutting their fuel bills.

My gamefishing cat was an outgrowth of my desire to adapt the multihull form to the motorsailer concept. It wasn't just about fuel cost savings, but rather unlimited range to reach remote locations that might have very limited, or no fuel supplys.

I don't know how one defines 'troller yachts', but I've long been disappointed in the disappearance of the idea of 'motorsailers' from our yachting vocabulary. A couple of excerpts from such discussions:

I was a little disappointed that you didn't have a separate category for this combination of sail & power, rather than just lumping it in with the sail category....but that seems the way the motorsailer has been treated (neglected) for so long. I tried to get an article on motorsailers into the current very popular American magazine, "Passagemaker",......no way, the boat has sails on it!...... As though the only true passagemakers were trawlers.

We don't hear much of motorsailers these days....not a popular subject. The old traditional, stoutly-built vessels, with a hefty engine(s), were necessarily compromised in both their sailing and powering statistics. Let's modernize the motorsailer. The multihull planform holds great promise to improve this breed. The long slender hulls of the catamaran vessel have proven real efficient to push under both power & sail.....not only efficient, but not limited to the traditional slow displacement/length hull-speeds. Just what the motorsailer needs....far less compromising increases in both sail and power performance, while maintaining economy of operation that truly allows long-range capability.

.....more at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=31854&postcount=11

 

Another point to consider, is that propulsion engine for small crafts will soon no longer be the biggest engine aboard.

Look at a typical 50-60 ft power boat.
Fridge, freezer, radiant cooker, microwave oven, washing drying machine, water maker, pressured cold / hot water, showerS, electric toiletS, bath tub, air con, heating, electric/hydraulic windlass and davit, radar ,electronics ... will soon burn more oil than mere propulsion.

Putting sails on such a boat will do nearly nothing on the genset/hydraulic fuel burn.

And if you don't put this comfort inside, the boat will not sell. Do not take builders (and their accountants) for dumbs. They put this equipment in the boats because customers want it and will *buy* it. The boat which does not have it all will look underequiped, wont sell, and wont make any money to its builder.

Try to sell a cruise sail boat with only an ice box and hand actuated pump for fresh water. Offered price by customers wil not even cover bare materials costs.

And if boats do not offer their owners a good comfort/luxury/price ratio, they will simply find other leisures. No one is mantaded to have a boat. Look what happened to small aircrafts. Aircraft owners do not switched to gliders. They simply switched to other leisures. Even perhaps boating.

 

Too expensive to sail?

Dear fcfc:

I agree with you on just about every point, but I don't think that is the true picture.

First off. Most of your 'troller yacht' buyers are comming from the sailing community. I see two reasons for this. One, These people are generally getting up in years. My guess is in thier 60's and 70's. They are not even thinking about where they are now. They are thinking about where they will be in five to ten years. And two The modern 'cruising' sailboat is more and more designed for higher performance. what I mean by that is the capability to reach and sustain semi-plaining speeds as well as to maintain reasonable (near displacement speeds) in light winds. In fact, it is not uncommon to hear of a 'cruising' boat that can routinely outsail a racing boat (designed to beat a rule, of course) of the same length class. This, of course, comes with heavy consequences. In order to perform these boats need to be light, long, deep, and high. They tend to have deep, wing like keels, deep unsuported rudders, and towering rigs. Many of them even have sails made out expensive, short lived materiels that are difficult to furl and stowe. The logistics of keeping such a vessel can be a nightmare; High docking fees due to deep draft; expensive and elaberate haulout procedures due to egg shell like hulls that can stand distributed loads very well but are vulnerable to high point loads, as well as the very vulnerable keel and rudder appendages; and the constant worry about running aground. Not only that, but the larger rigs tend (even with modern sail handling gear) to be physically demanding particularily if something breaks. Add to that the fact that if you want the conforts of home you are going to have to go pretty large (50 or even 60ft).

Now offer the same client a boat that is probably 10ft shorter, 5ft shallower, much sturdier, easier and cheaper to haul out (can stand on its own keel for bottom painting and repairs), and has a fuel appetite that is so stingy that it (as of 2003 prices) rivals the cost of replacement sails for the same distance traveled. And, if thats not enough, add formerly forbidden creature comforts on top of that. Is it any wonder people make the switch?
Three. These people tend to be pressed for time. Many are semi retired not retired. The troller yacht and its trawler cousen can be relied upon to arrive at a given point at a given time. Not so with the pure (80% or more) sailboat.
With the relatively low cost of fuel, I can see why some clients are tempted to ask thier designers for boats that can rival thier old sailboats top speed. (I believe this is a temptation they should resist.)

Second. the fact that a sail assisted cruise ship has a much higher ticket price than its full powered cousen is scant evidence that sailing is more expensive way to travel. There can be at least two alternative explanations for this. One is the novelty effect. If its new and you're the only one, why not charge through the nose (as long as you can get away with it). Two, because cruise ships are marketed mainly for their luxury, (in space as well as comfort) The pure powered vessel has a distinct advantage. Due to the effects of mechanical scaling, sailing vessels can not be much more than 300ft. This gives the pure power vessel of 800ft or more a cubic space advantage. That is why I said in my last post that pure power vessels will most certainly not be swept from the sea, as long as they stay large.

Third. The arguement that a power boat, even a troller, could use more energy for its comforts than its propulsion I find very questionable. I takes approximately 2hp/ton to push a boat to hull speed. And this is assuming ideal conditions such as a calm sea and calm or favorable winds. You should at least double that for unfavorable conditions. And thats just your continuous hp. And that should be anywhere from 65 to 75% of your engines peak (avertised) hp. Now. Lets see. We'll assume that we're talking about a twenty ton boat (pretty small, actually). 2hp/ton * 20tons = 40hp. 40hp * 2 = 80hp. 80hp/0.75 = 107hp. Your 20ton boat should have an engine rated between 107 and 120 hp. Now, let's say you are the very fruegal type. You run your engine at one third throttle most of the time. 107/3 = 35hp. Since one hp equals roughly three quarters of a kilowatt we will now multiply 35 * 0.75 to get roughly 27 kilowatts. Now the average house uses roughly 3 kilowatts on the average. Just to be sporting. I'll double that to 6kwts for peak (everything running at once) use. And in the case that I'm underestimating, I'll rase that by 50% to 9kwts. As you can see, It stil comes nowhere near your energy used for propulsion.

Fourth, and most important. The predictions that I made in my last post were for the turn of the next decade (circa 2010) which is well within the useful life span of almost all boats built this year or even those built five years previously. The stuff that we (Americans) casually put into our gas tanks is probably the most precious resource on this planet. Of the preciousness of this resource, I fear, we are about to (in the next five years) get a stern education.

Bob

 

Everybody has a different opinion.

From early 1982 until the end of 1986 I was member of a group called SAILA, the Sail Assist International Liaison Associates. A grand name for a small group, about 50 people throughout the world, mostly naval architects and professional captains. We were all involved, in one way or another, in sail assisted commercial vessels. My interest was as a designer but also as an offshore fisherman actively using sail aboard commercial fishing vessels. At the time there seemed to be a great deal happening and it was inspiring to be in a group all working on similar projects.

There were a number of high-profile undertakings, Greenpeace rigged the Rainbow Warrior as a ketch, the Atlantic Clipper was carrying freight across the Atlantic, the Japanese were adding sail assist rigs to bulkers, Cousteau built his Flettner rigged cat, Walker was pushing ridged wingsails. And there were numerous small fishing vessel projects.

But, as often happens, holding the organization together fell to the same two people. They got tired, the group fell apart, and I still refer to the handful of newsletters. In the 90's alternate energy projects have gone in other directions. Fishing vessels are being eliminated so quickly that no one has a moment to look around and think about the future.

Maine lobster fisherman are doing well, so they are installing larger engines and running them harder. What will their kids do, who knows?

Here in BC our marinas are packed with ex commercial trollers that have been pushed out of the industry. By default they have become pleasure boats, the only "troller yachts" that I know of. Mr. Buehler's designs are not even close.

I agree with Fc, we are forever changing out used up generators on yachts. The gen. has 10-15000 hours on it, while the main is just approaching 2000 and the boat is 10 years old.

According to PassageMaker Magazine and Nordhavn, the buyers of their products are not retiring sailors, but first time boat owners. They are retired professionals who understand the "Lexus Mentality" marketing by Nordhavn. "No user serviceable parts inside." If you have a problem, just get on the sat phone and call mission control. These are the only folks I know that have $1000 to spend on a course in Atlantic City on changing light bulbs.

And they are the only folks I know that can afford, if Bob's prediction comes true, to spend several million on a luxury leisure vehicle that may be worthless in 10-20 years.

All the best, Tad

 

Trollers

Hi Tad.

Thanks for setting me straight on the Buehler 'diesel ducks' as opposed to real trollers. And on the buyers of some of the manufactured full displacement powerboats (which I like to call 'troller yachts' to distinguish them from 'trawler' yachts which are now usually semi-plaining).

I do, however, think you should get back in touch with your sail assist buddies. I expect you will see many a keel hastely welded and bolted on and many a sail rig ad hoc errected by the turn of the decade. Your services will be much in demand because the savings in fuel will someday soon be a healthy part of profitable operation.

Cy Hamlin, the co instructor then at The Landing School, gave a great lecture there during the winter of '90 when I was there as a student. Some members of the local press even came. The topic was how the Maldive fishing fleet was fitted with engines. We all listened raptly. He described the entire process all the way from keeping the propellers from breaking to getting the fuel distributed throughout the thousand mile archipelgo. It was done in such a way in which the profit centers were more or less evenly distributed. A telling lesson in 21st century capitalism if there ever was one. I wish I could have recorded it.

It is interesting to note that although they added engines of more than enough power, the sailing rigs were merely cut down a bit. Not fully shed.

Bob

"efficiencey and reliabillity are often opposites"

 

The genie is out of the bottle. Fuel price escalation is going to force the development of alternative fuel sources, but not at the expense of speed, performance, or creature comforts. Rather than going back to an 18th century model, I think the fuel situation will spur new development of even more light-weight, high performance composite materials (both for skin and framing) and alternative fuel sources for propulsion. Offshore wind farm development might create a partnering opportunity for all-electric boats. Hydrogen fuel cells are also going to probably start to hit the market en force in the next few years. Just give 'em a while - they'll come up with something. Until then, keep your wallet open

 

SkySails

Check this:
http://skysails.info/index.php?id=13
These guys seem to be serious about the thing. Tey've told me even fishermen are asking around...

Check this too:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/mech-tech/mg18524881.600