Military recon powerboat concept

brian eiland said:

I've talked briefly with one of your working mates Rick Loheed about a RIB project I had in mind.

But, what I'm interested in here is hearing your comments on this 'ridiculous' design and waste of money in my opinion:
M-Hull, M hull, M Ship
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5687

(probably best to add them to that other threaded discussion)

(BTW I live right up in DC now, but spent quite a number of years in the boat business down there in Annapolis)

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Hmmm...I would probably be well advised to not start throwing out my opinions, personal or professional, about such as 'M-Hull', when I'm only a 'newbie' on this forum. There were some interesting comments in that thread about other vessel types that are near and dear..such as Mr. Clifford's catamaran creations that required so many of our active stabilization solutions Oh the stories I could tell..but most often shouldn't.

Tri-Hull

kach22i said:

I'm sure the boat guys would enjoy a thread on the MM56CX, that cool tri-hull.
As seen here:
http://www.islandengineering.com/
(click NEWS)
I like anything which may be termed a "Jesus Boat".

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I assume you are familar with Dick Newick's tri-hull powerboat
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/16142-post55.html

...or Peter Payne's work down there on Chesapeake Bay, Sea Knife
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/16010-post47.html
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=81761&postcount=8

In fact you might find this whole subject thread interesting
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/2701-trimarans-bladerunner.html

Quite familiar with all of the above. Close friend has the scars to show for his encounter with the Bladerunner's 'uusual' stability performance during one particular high-speed turning demonstration. Peter's work?...well suffice to say, he was not lacking in innovative concepts. His Wavestrider, I believe it was called, was REALLY interesting from the operator's viewpoint.

Note our MM56CX trimaran is not a trimaran....really. It is a super-slender monohull when at operating design speed, with 75-80% of the displacement on the foils and only a portion of the center hull in contact with the or below the water surface. The amas are well clear of the water surface.

Bladerunner's unusual stability

BMcF said:

Quite familiar with all of the above. Close friend has the scars to show for his encounter with the Bladerunner's 'uusual' stability performance during one particular high-speed turning demonstration.

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I would love to hear more of this story...off list if you wish.

Is this the powerboat - Bladerunner as in the thing called Bladerunner built in the UK?

A truly horrid thing. And unfortunately I own one....

Verytricky said:

Is this the powerboat - Bladerunner as in the thing called Bladerunner built in the UK?

A truly horrid thing. And unfortunately I own one....

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ICE Marine's craft is the one I was referring to..yes, its a UK group. I met the principals when they visited our facility for a demonstration of our foil-assisted trimaran..back in about 2002, when they first hit the scene, so to speak.

I've seen nothing in way of any hard test data on their boats, but know a little about how well they manage high-speed turns if you push the envelope a bit too much. But you can also blame the driver I suppose.

BMcF said:

ICE Marine's craft is the one I was referring to..yes, its a UK group. I met the principals when they visited our facility for a demonstration of our foil-assisted trimaran..back in about 2002, when they first hit the scene, so to speak.

I've seen nothing in way of any hard test data on their boats, but know a little about how well they manage high-speed turns if you push the envelope a bit too much. But you can also blame the driver I suppose.

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OK, year 1999 first one built.
I own the first commercially offered for sale one, powered by 2x300 promax outboards.
Blame the driver - going to smack you one!!!

First off, really very very very stable in a flat sea, high speed flat running, excellent. But, and a huge but here, they are totally useless in a big sea, any thing over say 3 foot.

First off, if you hit the waves head on, they crash over the boat, dipping the nose into the sea, no amount of attitude adjustment from the engine will work, as you basically have no control over the attitude of the boat.

Second, if you hit waves from anything from say 15 degrees to 70 degrees, the one 'outer leg' dips into the trouph, whist the other is on a peak of a wave and this tries to throw the boat over. Occasionally a wave will 'bottom out' the lift on one side, and because ( unlike a cat) it is a very short section, it dips, bites water and tries to spin. Very bad at anything faster than 30 mph..

It also tends to burry the nose in a corner, again because you cant 'lift' the nose.


I do believe I am a good driver, and I have a world offshore speed record and a british national speed record to my name, as well as regularly winning offshore races. As such, I can recognise a boat that is inherently unsafe to drive in anything exceept the most perfect flat calm windless conditions.

As far as I know, no one who was stupid enough to buy one ( yes, laugh ) actually uses it. I have seen several for sale ( as is mine on sale ! ) and they are going for around 20% of their original purchase price, and still not selling!

The 'race version' was up for sale for 4 years, it was bought for around £70k, refitted, and was back on sale in under 1 month. Currently you can buy it for £40k, fully refitted, new electronics etc - the new radar, nav systems etc are prolly worth over £15k by themselves, almost woth buying just to scrap it for parts!!!

None of the 8 or so currently for sale have more than 60 hours run time! Because they scare the sh.... out of the owners who then discover that no one really wants to buy them.

Lorne Campbell has been designing three pointers for years. They have raced with great success for one or two races - then for no real aparent reason have dumped the crew. I have seen one cartwheel around a turn bouy in flat racing conditions. They are simply not a good idea.

Having said that, anyone wanting to buy a nice red Bladerunner, £35k for the boat, all kited and ready to go. £4k will buy you the road trailer that goes with it.....

That's a real shame, they are such pretty boats..............and don't look very different from other exotic designs I've seen in this forum.

http://www.icemarine.com/spec/51_spec.htm#

http://www.travelizmo.com/archives/cat_sport_boats.html


The C of G looks way forward in this image.
http://www.icemarine.com/profile2.htm

Verytricky said:

OK, year 1999 first one built.
I own the first commercially offered for sale one, powered by 2x300 promax outboards.
Blame the driver - going to smack you one!!!

....

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Uh oh..on here less than 1 week and I've already invited threats of physical violence against my person. I expect the ban wagon will be pulling up shortly..

Actually..I was not meaning to impugne YOUR driving skills at all..I was referring to the little incident where the barrel-rolling of a Bladerunner at high speed left a rather nasty knot on a friend's head that requiered a fair number of stitches. Good thing for him that chicks dig scars, eh?

Miraculously, considering the speed involved and the violence of the sudden roll-over, no one was killed or even seriously injured in the mishap.

I've been in the 'funny boat' business long enough that I've seen a lot of gimmickry come and go. Sorry to hear about your experience..and I think I'll have to pass on your generous offer for sale. My 16' '72 Donzi causes me enough trouble - making good use of my vast experience in small craft design, I wisely installed a very conservative 486 dyno-proven HP in the little 'skiff'.

BMcF said:

Uh oh..on here less than 1 week and I've already invited threats of physical violence against my person. I expect the ban wagon will be pulling up shortly..

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I dont think they have a BAN button. I am still here after all these years, so this forum most definately does not have one!

Trimarans and the Bladerunner

Verytricky said:

OK, year 1999 first one built.
I own the first commercially offered for sale one, powered by 2x300 promax outboards.
Blame the driver - going to smack you one!!!

First off, really very very very stable in a flat sea, high speed flat running, excellent. But, and a huge but here, they are totally useless in a big sea, any thing over say 3 foot.

First off, if you hit the waves head on, they crash over the boat, dipping the nose into the sea, no amount of attitude adjustment from the engine will work, as you basically have no control over the attitude of the boat.

Second, if you hit waves from anything from say 15 degrees to 70 degrees, the one 'outer leg' dips into the trouph, whist the other is on a peak of a wave and this tries to throw the boat over. Occasionally a wave will 'bottom out' the lift on one side, and because ( unlike a cat) it is a very short section, it dips, bites water and tries to spin. Very bad at anything faster than 30 mph..

It also tends to burry the nose in a corner, again because you cant 'lift' the nose.


I do believe I am a good driver, and I have a world offshore speed record and a british national speed record to my name, as well as regularly winning offshore races. As such, I can recognise a boat that is inherently unsafe to drive in anything exceept the most perfect flat calm windless conditions.

As far as I know, no one who was stupid enough to buy one ( yes, laugh ) actually uses it. I have seen several for sale ( as is mine on sale ! ) and they are going for around 20% of their original purchase price, and still not selling!

The 'race version' was up for sale for 4 years, it was bought for around £70k, refitted, and was back on sale in under 1 month. Currently you can buy it for £40k, fully refitted, new electronics etc - the new radar, nav systems etc are prolly worth over £15k by themselves, almost woth buying just to scrap it for parts!!!

None of the 8 or so currently for sale have more than 60 hours run time! Because they scare the sh.... out of the owners who then discover that no one really wants to buy them.

Lorne Campbell has been designing three pointers for years. They have raced with great success for one or two races - then for no real aparent reason have dumped the crew. I have seen one cartwheel around a turn bouy in flat racing conditions. They are simply not a good idea.

Having said that, anyone wanting to buy a nice red Bladerunner, £35k for the boat, all kited and ready to go. £4k will buy you the road trailer that goes with it.....

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Hello Verytricky,
I found you analysis very interesting and have some additional qestions for you in the future. At the moment I'm pretty busy getting my new DynaRig motorsailer up online.

I looked back thru a few of your postings and found this one that appears to be an idea you have for an air entrapment hull design
Retrofit Turbine Engine to Powerboat
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9011

Doesn't this discussion conflict with you dislike of the Bladerunner hull form??

Verytricky said:

Yes.

It has a long thin center hull ( 32 foot ) with two 'tunnels' for air entrapment. The outer 'hulls' are really blade like runners, and are about 1/3 the length of the hull.

She rides completely flat. You can not get the bow 'up' - she is always flay to the sea.

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And at the end of this tread I found I had contributed to it as well,
Turbine Powered Rib
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=77683&postcount=22
The thread died there and no one else contributed??

And finally I was going to ask if you had ever contributed your views of this design to that subject thread at Yachtforums,
Trimarans and the Bladerunner
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/2701-trimarans-bladerunner-7.html
..but I just looked there and found you did recently make a posting. I think you should repeat that posting you made here and see what reaction you get on the other site??...should be interesting

Great learning on these forums...information sharing!!

Thanks and regards

brian eiland said:

I found you analysis very interesting and have some additional qestions for you in the future.

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Anytime. If I can offer information that is useful, I hope to do so.

brian eiland said:

I looked back thru a few of your postings and found this one that appears to be an idea you have for an air entrapment hull design
Retrofit Turbine Engine to Powerboat
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9011

Doesn't this discussion conflict with you dislike of the Bladerunner hull form??

Click to expand...

You will notice I have dropped the thought of adding more power to the boat. My initial reasoning was that I was told that the engines I had fitted, the 300 promax were limiting the ability of the boat to 'get air' correctly, and the race version with more power resolved all the issues I was having. So I thought to add a chunk of extra power and lighten the boat would solve the issues.:idea:

( see - although it handles like a dog in any sort of sea that is not perfect calm, it is a very sexy looking boat, and I wanted it to work. ):!:

Unfortunately, I went out in the race version, and although lighter by a third, and more powerful by about 20% it still has exactly the same characteristics.

So I 'moved on'...

I figured I would spend a lot of money on something that was unfixable. Basically I have a boat that is capable of 80mph, but which you can only safely drive at 55mph. I have moved on to the Occe Manefeld 'Bat Boats' and find them to be very delightful. They do what they are supposed to do, and in a very ( booringly ? ) predictable way. They warn you when you are pushing the boundary, and fail in a pedictable manner, so you can recover from your errors. I like that. The boat design makes me look like a very good driver!

The Bladerunner isnt' - It will trumble along and them without any warning try kill you. No predictability ( I suppose you can mathematically predict why it does what it does, but that is little help when you are at sea! )

I suppose one day I may re-look the boat as a project. Perhaps install a deep running drive like a DPX, and a lightweight V8 650hp engine - probably blown. Then try fix the 'attitude' by playing with spray rails etc.

( Another issue is that when the stern correctly raises itself on the cussion of air, the bow digs itself deeper into the water - the COG appears to be at about the front windscreen. If not the COG, then definately the pivot point. Way too far forward for comfortable driving. Its asking too much of the design for the bow to lift with the stern, but it needs to do this to be stable. Possibly some changes to the spray rails - and something like the sunseeker XS anti stuff nose ( buzzi design ) or even a second - smaller bow spray deflector to kick up the nose at speed? Something just out of the water line at cruising speed, yet forced into the water when the stern lifts and the boat pivots, to help the bow up? Loads of thoughts - possibly one day a reality? )

Or alternately, ship the boat inland and use it as a Lake Boat - No wave action - no issues.

BMcF said:

My 16' '72 Donzi causes me enough trouble - making good use of my vast experience in small craft design, I wisely installed a very conservative 486 dyno-proven HP in the little 'skiff'.

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Can you email me any and all pictures of the little "skiff" to highlnd@telus.net

As the owner of a few, and a passion for them all (early DONZI's) I would love to see what you have created.

Thanx, Lenny

Lenny said:

Can you email me any and all pictures of the little "skiff" to highlnd@telus.net

As the owner of a few, and a passion for them all (early DONZI's) I would love to see what you have created.

Thanx, Lenny

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done.

Ninja Navy Elephants

...I saw this little letter in Feb issue of Popular Science and had a laugh, but it certainly rings true

I have to laugh every time I see a 'stealth' ship reported as an innovation in design ["Invisible Warship", Concepts & Prototypes, Nov]

Having served on a submarine, I can tell you that any surface ship is a target. It is hard to hide an elephant on a football field, even a ninja Navy elephant.

Submarines are by nature far less visible. Perhaps we should invest in new submarine designs rather than white elephants.
Ken Russell