Boat Design Forums  |  Boat Design Directory  |  Boat Design Gallery  |  Boat Design Book Store  |  Thanks to Our Site Sponsors

Go Back   Boat Design Forums > Design > Sailboats
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 03-20-2010, 02:19 AM
oldsailor7 oldsailor7 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Rep: 269 Posts: 1,118
Location: Sydney Australia
All this theory is very nice ---but in practical use on full size sailboats it is probably quite impractical

The nearest you can get to it is a horizontal endplate on the top of the mast
and that would have to be large enough to cover the top of a square topped sail. The extra windage would have to be taken into account and also the extra weight high up.

Increased aspect ratio is probably the most practical way to go.

A flat plate on the top of the boom would help with the foot vortex. but would be inconvenient with modern rigs.

Last edited by oldsailor7 : 03-20-2010 at 02:35 AM. Reason: Duplication.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-20-2010, 09:28 AM
peterraymond peterraymond is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 36 Posts: 81
Location: Colorado
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsailor7 View Post
The nearest you can get to it is a horizontal endplate on the top of the mast and that would have to be large enough to cover the top of a square topped sail. The extra windage would have to be taken into account and also the extra weight high up.
The top is where people first think of doing something, but in addition to adding weight, it also moves the center of effort up which is not so good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsailor7 View Post
Increased aspect ratio is probably the most practical way to go.
Increased aspect ratio should be taken as far as available righting moment allows. The question is, what do you do next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsailor7 View Post
A flat plate on the top of the boom would help with the foot vortex. but would be inconvenient with modern rigs.
There is more theory at: http://aero.stanford.edu/Reports/VKI_nonplanar_Kroo.pdf They don't mention endplates and I have to think that is because a winglet is more efficient. When you are controlling and redirecting the flow of air, a flat plate is less than ideal. On the other hand, a winglet has the disadvantage that it's sticking out there where you could run into it. I'm thinking though that if your head doesn't hit the boom, you can learn to duck under the winglet too. It also looks like there is some flexibility in where you put it. You might be able to have a design that sits stationary on either side of the mast. Or, you might mount it further back, but some distance up from the base on a wing sail. Winglets near the base move the center of effort down and add power, so they promise some combination of more power and less drag, without increasing heeling moment.

You don't have to do a perfect job. I see the task as finding the best most practical design. Maybe you have two winglets mounted at 90 derees to each other, viewed from above, so that on each tack one is under the boom and the other sticks straight out to leeward. the one under the boom would not do much, but the one to leeward would be optimally cambered and have the correct angle of attack.

I do however think that large heel angles might complicate things, so I'd do the first experiment on an A-cat. An A-cat would also let you take two similar boats and do side by side testing and the result would be class legal too.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-20-2010, 03:06 PM
Perm Stress's Avatar
Perm Stress Perm Stress is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Rep: 323 Posts: 523
Location: Lithuania
There is very simple, cheap and effective way to reduce losses on sail: just seal the gap between the boom and hull, as it is done on racing boats with headsails. At least the foremost part of it. If this sealing is made from transparent material and do not intrude in the cockpit space -here you are: extra drive, lower center of effort, no extra weight aloft.
The drawback is most your marina neighbors will laugh at it...
__________________
All the stresses in my designs are 95% of permissible.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-20-2010, 04:21 PM
Doug Lord's Avatar
Doug Lord Doug Lord is online now
Flight Ready
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 919 Posts: 5,603
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perm Stress View Post
There is very simple, cheap and effective way to reduce losses on sail: just seal the gap between the boom and hull, as it is done on racing boats with headsails. At least the foremost part of it. If this sealing is made from transparent material and do not intrude in the cockpit space -here you are: extra drive, lower center of effort, no extra weight aloft.
The drawback is most your marina neighbors will laugh at it...
--------------
Steve Dashew, for one, tried what you suggest and said there was a dramatic improvement on his boat-I'll try to find the article....
__________________
yes, it is a revolution
---"So (yet) another new world begins." Seahorse 2011
My Gallery: http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...0&ppuser=31218
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-20-2010, 05:04 PM
peterraymond peterraymond is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 36 Posts: 81
Location: Colorado
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perm Stress View Post
There is very simple, cheap and effective way to reduce losses on sail: just seal the gap between the boom and hull, as it is done on racing boats with headsails. At least the foremost part of it. If this sealing is made from transparent material and do not intrude in the cockpit space -here you are: extra drive, lower center of effort, no extra weight aloft.
The drawback is most your marina neighbors will laugh at it...
Wait, that's too easy! On many boats the boom position is hard to lower, but some skiff boats have that extension from the below the boom to the mast. On a cruising boat you might benefit from a wish-boom type boom and a sail that brushes the cabin roof for part of the way back. Still even in this case, a lot of times part of the crew goes over the roof on a tack. You also have the problem of the boom vang. The jack from above may make sense.

Boats hulls aren't typically designed for smooth airflow to the sail, but the flow around the boom you are interacting with is probably more from span-wise flow anyway. I don't know if you are better off or not on a cat. there might be some potential with the tramp, but with a cat you have to cross under the boom too. A cat hull with minimum freeboard ahead of the main beam will cause less disturbance of the flow to sail area near the base.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-20-2010, 05:29 PM
Doug Lord's Avatar
Doug Lord Doug Lord is online now
Flight Ready
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 919 Posts: 5,603
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Interesting discourse found by Brian Eiland, post# 50 "Sail Aerodynamics here:

Hi Steve and Linda, Thanks for all of the excellent books and tapes on you adventures. They have been a great help. I have noticed the winglets on airplane wings over the last few years. Has any one tried making a "plate" at the top of the mast, maybe using carbon fiber as a frame covered with sail cloth, to form a device which would reduce the vortexes created by a headsail & main combination? If if would work with a plate on each side of the mast, to tending would be needed during tacking or gybing. Asked my sailmaker about it but he deals with racers more than cruisers, so he is not too interested in the idea. Since you seem to be interested in making cruisers go faster with less effort, thought this idea might be for you. Thanks for thinking about it. Crawford
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Crawford: Interesting concept, and as a glider pilot, with some very long and exotically shaped "winglets" I can relate to what you are suggesting. However, in a sailboat situation there are a whole series of variable which make this idea impractical.

On the other hand, there is another approach which we've used over the years which does work in some cases. This is to "endplate" or seal off the bottom of the boomed sails. If you can achieve this for even half of the foot length, the increase in efficiency is dramatic.

On our 67' ketch, Sundeer, we were able to pick up five degrees in weatherliness--without losing boat speed, when we sealed the main and mizzen. We've just had seals made for Beowulf which we'll be testing in the near future, and will write up for SetSail.

The area added is down low, where it is in turbulent air flow and where the breeze is much lighter. However, the seal effect is very powerful, and if you can make it work with your rig and deck structure, will generate a huge improvement. Note--the less efficient your keel, the more this will help as it reduces induced drag--which hit cruising keels harder than those found on racing boats. Regards--Steve
__________________
__________________
yes, it is a revolution
---"So (yet) another new world begins." Seahorse 2011
My Gallery: http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...0&ppuser=31218
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-22-2010, 02:27 PM
Petros Petros is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Rep: 889 Posts: 1,005
Location: Arlington, WA-USA
I have thought about this issue for a long time, but I think the advanage would be limited. Any effect of end plating, either a winglet at the top or a gap seal at the boom, has the same effect as increasing the aspect ratio. For the same sail area it would be far better to just increase the aspect ratio in terms of efficiency (less losses). But this has the undesirable effect of raising the aerodynamic center on the sail. If you can deal with that there are real and practical benefits (not just theoretical) for sail performance.

The extra weight up top, and extra complexity of a winglet at the top of the mast would have only one area of advantage (over a larger sail) that I can think of. the current way the rules are written the sail area is calculated as the projected area of the mast and sail. That means presumably they would not count the area of the winglet (nor the cabin roof either if you seal the sail below the boom). That would be your advantage since the effective sail area would than be larger than the projected sail area. This would at first be an advantage, until all the new records are set with sail with winglets, and they change the rules.

So it is simply a way to "cheat" the intent of the rules, and that likely will only be a temporary condition.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-23-2010, 12:20 AM
peterraymond peterraymond is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 36 Posts: 81
Location: Colorado
I added a couple more lines to the graph I stole from Tom Speer to compare the effect of sealing the bottom to adding aspect ratio. If you seal the bottom - perfectly, the optimum plan form changes and that lowers the heeling moment. You can then increase the aspect ratio by about 30% and the result will be the same lift and heeling moment from the sail, but less than 1/2 the induced drag. This is not particularly new and just repeats what I said in my first post in this thread.

If you wanted the same reduction in induced drag, while maintaining a 5% gap, you would have to increase the aspect ratio around 60% and the heeling moment would go up around 29%, for the same lift. This shows the cost of using aspect ratio, while the first example shows the big benefit of doing something at the bottom.

(The 60% and 29% numbers, depending on how Tom set up the graph, may not be quite right, because they assume the gap will stay 5%, but if you did increase the aspect ratio 60%, the same physical gap at the bottom would now be less: 5/1.6 = 3.13% of the new hoist.)

Whether winglets or sealing the bottom would work better must depend on a bunch of stuff, not the least being class rules. The response of rule makers will vary from class to class too. Certainly in some classes, whatever improvement you came up with would be gone if the boat did well at a World Championship. I suspect that in, for instance A-cats, the response would be to congratulate you. Here I think that sealing the base might be tough. Winglets? To go a good job would probably take a 3 CFD analysis, or some informed design and testing. I also don't think it would buy you as much as sealing the bottom.
Attached Thumbnails
Winglets on sails?-optimum-planform-2.jpg  
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Efficiency of Sails D'ARTOIS Boat Design 33 09-06-2005 08:13 AM
Sails in Maxsurf ivansalasj Software 6 03-02-2005 05:50 PM
sails on outriggers????? wannabe Multihulls 5 07-19-2004 08:33 AM
Rudder "winglets" Bill Nordby Boat Design 1 03-07-2004 03:11 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:17 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Web Site Design and Content Copyright ©1999 - 2012 Boat Design Net