Wild Oats XI(CBTF) WINS 2008 Sydney Hobart(Well,I hope!)

[masalai]

catsketcher, I too came up in monos, have raced monos and must admit they are fun to race and look very sexy and feminine, but nothing beats a good cat as a cruiser... Power or sail....

My racing "culminated" in 1977 sailing Court 650 and 750's when Charlie was Premier of WA.... I was at W.A.I.T., now Curtin Uni....

Oats in the lead-again- as of 9:20 EST 12/27

I think its a shame multies aren't allowed in the Sydney-Hobart. But it is a similar travesty to call this fantastic sailing machine a "motorboat".
And, by the way,Hydroptere uses movable(courtesy on board diesel) water ballast-is she a motorboat?

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

I think its a shame multies aren't allowed in the Sydney-Hobart. But it is a similar travesty to call this fantastic sailing machine a "motorboat".
And, by the way,Hydroptere uses movable(courtesy on board diesel) water ballast-is she a motorboat?

Yes, it is a motor boat .... they both are since you asked. If you need fuel or batteries to make it go, it's a motor boat. If you have to stop sailing because you have run out of fuel, it's a motor boat.

Everyone has to draw a line somewhere, and that's where I draw mine. Sailrocket to me is still a sailboat. I respect the achievements of the Sailrocket team more than the Hydroptere folks, but that is just my opinion.

There is no moment so magical when offshore as when the last diesel smell disappears and you can smell nothing but ocean.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Hydroptere uses movable(courtesy on board diesel) water ballast-is she a motorboat?

Yes, of a sort.

It's kinda like suggesting that a woman might be a "little bit pregnant". Once you cross the line, you enter a completely different realm.

You like to deal in absolutes, Doug, with your strict adherence to an absolute list of numbers that describe a boat. You also have an absolute sense that a kiteboarder is not engaged in sailing a boat, among many others too numerous to present here.

1. Why is it that you struggle so with this bit of absolute reality?

2. Why is it that the WSSRC describes these boats in a separate class from non-powered, traditional sailboats?

3. Why is it that the America's Cup boats still have not adopted the use of full-time engines for sailing systems, when canting keels have been around for the last two AC events?

Please have the courtesy to answer each question, instead of wandering off the reservation with your answer.

Thank you.

[ancient kayaker]

Doug, thanks for the great pic, now I can see what is going on underwater. Is it just the counterweight effect, or is there a second pivoting axis so it can be used as a stabilizer? At speed that would deliver similar results for less weight.

Hm, motors on sailboats eh? Some rules allow, some forbid, strokes for folks, seems fair to me. Ditto the multi vs mono punchup. Are there races that permit both? Come to that, a truly open race would allow power and sail boats to compete against each other. That might work with a fuel consumption limit, and spark some useful green marine development.

Seriously though, onboard power for sail control allows development to proceed independently of human strength and endurance limits and decouples the boat's performance somewhat from that of the crew.

Oh, oh! Let me nip a yet another potential controversy in the bud. I absolutely do not intend to imply that the crews on these boats have an easy berth or in any other way to minimize their hard work!

By the same logic that says Wild Oats XI is a "motorboat" one would have to say that the Moth, F18 and Tornado are human powered boats-not sailboats.
And that and the other are absolutely ridiculous....
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Wild Oats now 20 miles ahead of Skandia-Go Oats!

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

By the same logic that says Wild Oats XI is a "motorboat" one would have to say that the Moth, F18 and Tornado are human powered boats-not sailboats.
And that and the other are absolutely ridiculous....

So, there we have it. The perfect fulfillment of the description, "wandering off the reservation", as previously noted. Doug refuses to answer the questions for which he has no suitable answers. Quite funny, really and oh, so predictable. One could almost say... ridiculous, if one were predisposed to do so.

The functional trouble with your "logical" premise, Doug, is that sailboats have always been "human powered" in the way that you suggest. It is the new crop of engine equipped versions that have stepped outside the norms. The engine inclusion does not drag the non-engine genre into the same morass, Doug, simply because you attempt to wordsmith your way around the issue. Surely you can do better. You know, like something that actually has relevance, rather than a straw grasping session that only fills the air with the smell of desperation.

Please show the courtesy of answering the previously presented questions, Doug. I know they are within your capacity. While you are at it, here's another question to be added to the list...

4. If the canting keel yachts with the full-time engines are not uniquely different, then how is it that the CBTF clan managed to get a specific patent on the change, as compared to a "normal sailboat" without an engine?

Thank you in advance for your prompt, responsible and relevant attention.

[catsketcher]

I always watch the Hobart start and it was interesting to see the difference between Wild Oats and Shockwave. On Shockwave there were a pair of guys at the coffee grinders and a guy trimming the kite. On Wild Oats the winches wound magically - no coffee grinders.

It does make things different. Shockwave's crew will be bigger and heavier and they will get more tired. They must sit on the rail whereas the situation on Wild Oats and Skandia is not so critical, although they can sit on the rail too. I am old fashioned enough to still find people pulling out of races because their generator stopped (one boat has done so this year) more than a little strange. That is what batteries are for I thought. Then again I haven't finished a Hobart so my two cents worth are probably worth just that.

Generators are allowed for Round the World boats but their needs are of course greater. Then IDEC sets a record using no fossil fuels at all. We can all agree that this is a sailing boat in the truest meaning of the word.

cheers

Phil

[masalai]

"Goodness Gracious Me" and boom bitty boom etc - You guys need a permanent moderator to keep things in line Doug seems happy to accept a broader view and imply dingies may not fit "pure sailboat rules" is the argument that an engine is the replacement for non availability of sufficient "deck apes" applies to Wild Oats et all.... ????? long live different views....

Patent schmatent the point is sail purist against non use of engines and why should multihulls be excluded from ocean racing by the monohull purists only because the multihull is usually faster and often "races" with mugs and glasses of various beverages being enjoyed by the on-board passengers???

catsketcher, I am guessing but feel the deckie will still be needed as moveable ballast and quicker than pumps to re-trim the vessel, - - - My build will definitely be motor-sailer, with electric winches if the budget allows, so therefore excluded from sail racing as the Whitsunday "anything goes fun race" is no longer..? (the biggest exposed ballast on the "figurehead" at the bow has the best handicap)....

Da Oats ain't fer from da end-Go Wild one,go!!
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Not long now: anticipated earth shattering victory(4th in a row!) 5:30pm est today.
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"Look ma,the motorboat planes!"
(click on image)

[ancient kayaker]

Masalai: you're rushing in where angels fear to tread! Never invoke the name of "The Big M" in jest!

Sailing races celebrate the need for speed, recalling races between fishing boats or great tea clippers to get cargo to market first for the highest price, speed for good reason. No rules were needed to ensure fairness as limits were set by what was reasonable and commercially practical. Of course, that was until the amateurs got into the act. Innovation and deep pockets soon took over the field, so rules we now must have.

No matter how appealing to the purist, it seems slightly odd to spend millions on a sailboat designed for nothing else but speed and then begrudge a few hundred more for power winches to get even more speed, so that men can continue to be men. Power winches etc. hardly makes a boat into a motorboat, it's only the deck apes that are getting motorized. So long as the rules for the class of boat are complied with all is fair; in any race with rules bigger, faster, "better" boats will be excluded.

And rules will change. In F1 motor car racing the rules have changed many times, usually to impose an element of sanity (often called safety) into the proceedings.

Now to enrage the other side.

On the other hand, a completely motorless sailboat does at least impose some kind of limit over size and sail area. And it gets rid of the stink.

Oh Gawd, smoke on both horizons! Both sides are sending in their battleships ... dive! dive!

Wild Oats Wins! 5:45pm est Way to go!! Yee Ha!

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

No matter how appealing to the purist, it seems slightly odd to spend millions on a sailboat designed for nothing else but speed and then begrudge a few hundred more for power winches to get even more speed, so that men can continue to be men. Power winches etc. hardly makes a boat into a motorboat, it's only the deck apes that are getting motorized. So long as the rules for the class of boat are complied with all is fair; in any race with rules bigger, faster, "better" boats will be excluded.

Ahhh, yes, while you may find the transition to motorized sail and keel handling to be acceptable, what comes next in the pantheon of allowable "adjustments" that will trigger the limit from the perspective of the readers here? You know there's going to be a next big powered thing on board the boat, don't you? I mean, hey, the rules committee already proved that they'll bend over for anything that looks like wads of dough and the opportunity to rub shoulders with the beautiful people.

Maybe a series of computerized bubble emitters along the hull, that quickly morphs in less than two years, to a legitimate jet drive booster to further shorten the drive time to Hobart? Hey, you already allowed a stupid engine on board to do the work, why not simply extend the use of the engine to other possibilities? Cha-ching is the sound in the rules committee ears.

Would you guys find it OK if the boats entered were totally autonomous with a series of high loiter time drones providing real time feeds back to the cozy HQ of the owner from 15,000 feet. There, in his leather chair, he calls out the action for the boat to the joystick operator, while the both of them sip umbrella drinks and nibble on Buffalo Hot Wings, well removed from the fray.

Yes, it's a satire of the potential, but it's not that far from reality right now with off-the-shelf, existing technology. At what point does sanity and the desire to restore some measure of order to what will, by then, become a veritable carnival of cash flow?

Do I give a hoot in real terms...? Nope, not really, but it is fun to jockey around the topic and exchange ideas and understand the various philosophies.

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

And rules will change. In F1 motor car racing the rules have changed many times, usually to impose an element of sanity (often called safety) into the proceedings.

Safety has driven quite a few changes in F1 over the years, but the real big changes that will come very soon will be driven by economics. F1, as an entity, is just about cooked and ready to be tossed in the bin as it's just too damned expensive for the fans and the teams and it is in real danger of doing the bankruptcy dance. All because it chose to follow the endless stream of ever-higher tech at ever-higher costs, in favor of really good, close racing that was more about the driver than the car and all its telemetry controlled systems.

Honda just pulled out of F1... Honda. You know, the guys with more money than God when it comes to racing. They have more cash resources available to them than McLaren and Ferrari combined and they are getting out of the game because... it simply costs too much.

Food for thought you engine supporting sailboat guys.

Good stuff, AK, I enjoyed the post.

[ancient kayaker]

Some great ideas there, Chris. You may have unintentionally let a genie out of the bottle! The loitering drones would not happen, though, but there's already a satellite-controlled sailboat being tested for use in ocean environmental monitoring. We already have one-way only sailboats, how's that for specialization? I look forward to whatever wild-assed idea comes up next.

But in my humble opinion, its not a boat unless you have somewhere to store the beer. I mean, you've got to set SOME limits.

ps., who do you think you're accusing of supporting engines? I don't even have a sail! Although I must admit I have a long term project to retrofit steam-driven paddle wheels to my kayak.