Why no performance specs for new sailboats?

[fcfc]

Originally Posted by Claus Riepe

No, I did not forget that.: The BUILDER must pay for that.

The builder pays nothing. The builder makes money with. The one who will pay is always the customer. Any boat builder that don't make money building boats won't build boats for long. This is the very basis of business management.

Originally Posted by Claus Riepe

But you were not listening: To measure the VMG costs near to nothing. If the builder chooses to cheat, he will be found out by the PHRF guys, free of charge for him (except of course for the resulting face-loss).

The builder will cheat on any data useful for marketing if he can. Although there is an ISO rule for weigthS definition, it is very rare to find boats weigthing the advertised weigth.
It has been mandatory to make CEE laws for the car manufacturers to publish reliable data on their products performances.

Originally Posted by Claus Riepe

Because, PHRF rating and VMG are interconnected, you can re-compute PHRF into VMG and vice versa VMG into (upwind scenario) PHRF quite easily.

No. PHRF is based on statistical race results. http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/what_is_phrf.asp . It will include ALL parameters for determining its handicap, not only the inherent boat performance. Do you think the average crew level , sail equipement (number of sails, quality/age) or even cabin stuff is the same on a J/35 and westsail 32 ? But this is included in the PHRF handicap.


This is just my personal opinion. Anyone is perfectly free to think otherwise.

[jehardiman]

Originally Posted by Claus Riepe

Hey, come to think of it, the VMG could be a universal and comparable -even repeatable- performance indicator for sailboats, and be a better basis for a New Yardstick system of the future.
Agree?

Claus

Your naiveté about the repeatability of trials data astounds me even more than your belief about the usefulness of manufacturers data on speed. Munter said it best yesterday:

There are so many variables in sailing that getting a consistent set of data to allow comparison would be fairly difficult.
Do you just measure steady state speed or try to include some kind of analysis of dynamic effects as well? What sort of conditions get chosen to represent the baseline?

I cannot see any advantage to manufacturers for releasing predicted performance data. In fact all I see is a legal/marketing nightmare.

Let's say Monsieur Greedy wants to pick up an auld mug or two for the beach chateau. He does his math and figures he needs a minimum VMG of 7.2215 m/s at 30 apparent to take the pickle dish away from Signore Allegrissimo. So he consults his latest copy of Consumer Reports and lays down half a million euros for a Vivace 60 (not the church organ) which, by publishing performance data of a VMG of 7.25 m/s @ 30, enters into an implied contract with Monsieur Greedy. Another 200,000 euros for sails and a good "pick up" crew off his company sponsered ACC boat and he has the mantle cleared for the goodies. In the race he pulls a 4th in class out of 4 and is out of the silver with a maximum measured VMG at 30 apparent of 7.2007 m/s. He is now out 700,000 euros with nothing to show for it but the photo of the donkey tail pinned to him at the yacht club.

So, does he....fire the crew?....bad mouth the sailmaker in all the rags?...sue the manufacturer?

So Claus....what's your angle on all this?

(edit....in choosing fictious names based on music tempos for my example, I seem to stumbled upon an actual product....the fictious Vivace 60 racing sailboat is not related in any way, shape, or form to the Viscount Vivace 60 organ produced by Viscount International SpA - Classic Organs Division, PO BOX 5 - 47836 MONDAINO (Rimini) Italy - Tel +39 0541 981700 Fax +39 0541 98105)

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by fcfc

No. PHRF is based on statistical race results. http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/what_is_phrf.asp . It will include ALL parameters for determining its handicap, not only the inherent boat performance. Do you think the average crew level , sail equipement (number of sails, quality/age) or even cabin stuff is the same on a J/35 and westsail 32 ? But this is included in the PHRF handicap.


This is just my personal opinion. Anyone is perfectly free to think otherwise.

PHRF ratings are often based on things other than boat performance. There is no National Authority for PHRF in the USA, it is all regionally controlled. Some Areas are controlled by small groups of "good ol' boys" who look out for one another, and punish those not in their group. In other areas the ratings are handed out by people who sail around at the back of the fleet and have no idea what makes a boat go fast or slow. Some Handicappers base ratings on whether they can beat another sailor or not (golf handicapping).

So making a decision on the performance of a boat based on PHRF, or IRC, or any other handicap is pretty worthless.

[Guillermo]

I developed some time ago a labeling system for all kind of boats with sails, which intends to be an approach to solving the problem of 'first sight' identifying a boat's performance by the numbers.

If any of you is interested, it's here: http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/motorsailers/label.htm

Cheers.