Why does a cutter rig point higher & sail faster?

Dear Guest 249

So have I. Our interpretations are very different.

I consider that vessel accelerations, roll inertia, stability, broaching tendancy and structural durability to be important and weighty consideratoins in 'seaworthy' design.

Interstingly There are a few engineers and others who were not happy with the outcomes after the Hobart inquiry. Some felt that the boat designs were the main issues, and that the screening for unseaworthy boats is inadequate.

I always find it easier and safer to single hand a heavy displacement boat simply because of the more stable deck particularly working at or fwd of the mast.

As for your personal pref. Consider that your threshold for malaise may be well above that of most others.

A cutter rig with a self tacking boomed staysail and a furling outer jib may suprise you with its ease versatility and performance on a heavy cruising boat if you ever try such a vessel.

I could sell you some plans for a 56foot medium heavy cutter rigged ketch that would delight your wife (presumption) and keep her aboard on long passages! It is designed to be very seakindly and safe. You wouldn't want to race it but!

You still haven't joined ?

Cheers

 

Yep Mike, I think there is a tremendous amount of personal variation in likes and dislikes. I can certainly understand people who don't like the sort of boat that I like, and vice versa. I just get antsy when people seem to say that what THEY like is the ONLY way to go.

I've done a couple of Sydney-Noumea or Noumea-Sydney runs/races on heavy displacement long keelers, one a cutter and one a cutter-rigged ketch. I can understand that some people like them, but they're not for me.

My girlfriend did the Tornado cat worlds 18 months after she started sailing....she is more of a speed demon than I am, so when we go cruising it will either be a superannuated Farr, a heavily reworked old Spencer 45 or 40, or a multi. If I did get a new boat built, it would certainly have a self tacker and perhaps boom on the jib (my brother's 38' cat has one, it's brilliant and I've experimented with one on my own boat but I lack the deck space on a 28'er). One of my racing boats has a self tacker and it's a gem. I used to race a 30' JOGgie with a self tacker and it too was great. Allied with a bendy mast, you never changed sails but never got bored. I often sail my own boat under main alone or with the No 3 which requires about 12" of sheet trim when tacking. Soooo much better than a big genny.

The 38' cat is a lightweight cruiser with wishbone main. The rig design means that there is very little extra gear as a result of the cutter rig, and being intrinsically a very fast boat (he's a former multiple dinghy champ in some of the hottest classes) used for liveaboard family cruising, the boat spends much of its time "throttled back" under staysail. For that, it's a brilliant setup.

Looking back, I realise that I got distracted by the arguments about light displacement boats and rating rules. I apologise. The initial thread was also about speed and pointing; I still reckon a cutter is not as high and fast but it does make a brilliant cruising rig in some ways.

Haven't joined 'cause I've forgotten my password!

 

Old Ramblings

Hello

I love cutter rigged sailboats. Just why they point so well I think has various reasons. Smaller sails give better sail shapes on big boats with far less stretch. I suspect that the two sails give a more linear flow in the slot. The outer jib can often be sheeted in pretty hard on the wind without backwinding the mainsail luff even when its overlapping a fair bit.
There are huge variations inthe cutter rig and there is not much mention here of all the different options.

On the seaworthy boat and racing rules issue this man Mr Johns is voicing some wisdom here.

Opinions from people (experienced or not) are always available and always free. I usually find that the opinions of a racing yacht man will be (and appear in these postings) flavoured with a strong predudice towards racing boats. Ratonalisation of strongly held viewpoints based on opinions and flawed or incomplete observations leads to misinformation. Mr Johns is right in that the science and the numbers give us the truth. Passing on other peoples opinions is not the path to knowledge.

Having voyaged extensively myself (I am now 71) on many different craft in many different weathers I would like to make some observations and yes before you say it, these are my opinions .

I would say that the cutter rig is very versatile indeed on any platform, that it points well.
The 3/4 rig is very similar to the cutter under staysail alone. I see the yankee on a 3/4 often gets replaced by a masthead asymetric spinnaker these days so they are not so very different.

At my age a heavier more comfortable boat is nice. My wife and I now own a big comfortable ketch of 36 Tons that we often sail on long coastal passages just like Arthur Beiser in Minots Light with just my 14 yr old grandson. (It's cutter rigged and most everything furls ) For the number men its displacement to length ratio is 350, I would not go back to a lighter boat now and I think many die hard racing boat men miss out on the true joy of long term relaxed sailing.

We have had various racing yachts of differing designs and sizes none of them were as comfortable or dare I say as easy to sail shorthanded as our current boat when the glass drops. I have strong high solid safety rails, I own and often don, but never need to clip on my harness because the motion is slow enough for me to safely keep my feet . As the man says we Squish much more gently through the waves. Our boat is beautifully designed for comfort and performance, this is possible. There are a few yacht designers who can achieve this balance for a truely good cruising boat, but they have to look beyond the cruiser-racer cross breed.

I have finished with racing boats they do not make good cruising boats. But we still manage to race a few freindly duels we just don't win.

I saw the argument in this discussion that fast yachts are less tiring on their crew because they get there faster. This is racing talk. For cruising its just plain old hogwash.

I would like to liken boats to vehicles, a comfortable touring vehicle can be driven for days in comfort. Try it in a motor bike and sidecar, sure its fast and highway worthy but would you want to sit on it for 3 months and carry all your gear for the trip?

So I reckon as you get older you will get more conservative in your boat performance. As I once read on a Gravestone in Dunedin New Zealand where we had once made landfall. "Prepare yourself to follow me".

God Bless
R Kennedy

 

"I usually find that the opinions of a racing yacht man will be (and appear in these postings) flavoured with a strong predudice towards racing boats."

But surely one could just as validly say "I usually find that the opinions of a racing yacht man will be flavoured with a strong prejudice towards cruising boats"????


"Ratonalisation of strongly held viewpoints based on opinions and flawed or incomplete observations leads to misinformation.....'

Hmm, OK, so we cannot have opinions?? Do you seriously believe people can know anything about a subject and NOT have opinions?

And how can you say that those who disagree you have "flawed or incomplete observations"? For example, material to which I referred came to me directly from two of the world's most experienced offshore racers. So how can you say that it is "flawed or incomplete"? Are you saying that men who have done some of the world's toughest races, where 9 and 6 other sailors died, have only "incomplete observations"? One was a world champion, both have been sailing offshore almost continually since the 1960s - their 40 years experience, with some 70,000 miles (just counting their Sydney-Hobarts, not the numerous Fastnets and ACs (including victories) and 1080 nm Noumea races and 1500 mile Suva races etc) experience is not enough observation for you?


"Passing on other peoples opinions is not the path to knowledge."

But logically, we can't apply that - because it is merely your opinion. I can't logically apply your opinion that we can't apply other people's opinion....it's totally circular reasoning.

And surely, passing on other people's hard won knowledge IS a path to knowledge. As Newton said, he saw further by standing on the shoulders of giants.

If I was not to listen to the hard-won experience of people who have sailed around the world, I would surely be unspeakably arrogant, would I not?

So by your ideals, I could not heed Olin Stephens' remarks about yacht design; I could not live to the ideals of Socrates or JS Mills, or anyone else as they were basically merely opinions; I couldn't pass on what classical musicians tell me of their favourite symphonies; I could not ask a leading structural engineer about stresses; I could not ask (say) Tiger Woods about what he thinks to be the elements of the perfect golf swing; I couldn't ask an America's Cup leading light what he thinks about sail design. In fact I could learn nothing that I did not experience myself. That would be a poor sort of life, wouldn't it? A stunted, blinded existence bounded only by what we can see and touch.


"Mr Johns is right in that the science and the numbers give us the truth."

What science? What numbers? The science has many different aspects and theories in competition.

For example, the science has always said that inverted stability is affected by the volume of a coachroof. But test-tank trials by Martin Renilson of the AMC, conducted after the '98 Hobart, demonstrated that in fact it had no effect.

So whose science do we believe? Who has the right numbers? Southampton or AMC? How can we fnd out? In fact because you say we can't get opinions passed from other people, we can't even ask independent experts which view they favour.

And putting your faith in science will lead us directly AGAINST your view that cutters are better upwind. The most advanced science in sailing comes from America's Cup derived tank tests, wind tunnel tests and VPPs. These are incredibly powerful tools - and they do NOT lead designers to use cutter rigs in their designs for offshore racers (despite the fact that the extra sail area if free or almost free).

So the science and numbers are clear - cutters are not as effective upwind. You can't have it both ways can you?

 

Sorry, first sentence should have read "but surely the opinions of a cruising yacht man will be flavoured with a strong prejudice towards cruising boats".

 

Technically it's still not a cutter, it's a sloop with two headsails. Having two (or more) headsails does not make the rig a cutter alone. The mast would have to be moved aft to near the mid point of the boat to make it a true cutter.

Bill H.

 

In early days when power was limited as you mentioned, aircraft were biplanes primarily for structural reasons. Not for any interplay between the airfoils.

Bill H.

 

Have we got some real statistics and data telling us that cutter-rigged boats point higher or is this just a chat based on a single experience????
i've always thought that cutter's biggest advantage was a better distribution of sail in rough weather, so less pitching, less heeling and overall better control of the boat, never heard about best pointing abilities, that sounds new to me!!!
Please let me understand !!!!

fair wind
Mistral

 

May be you did not point too high to start with. Don't know if you used the yankee on the previous rig config. But a high clewed yankee doesn't sound too much of an upwind sail, if you're looking for pointing ability. Probably the extra canvass has given you the power 'in the front' to just sail and point the boat as it would do with good genoas as well. You have probably gained the most in light airs on a slightly agitated sea, where you need some power from your foresails.
I don't know the standard O'Day 37, but might it get just too little power from her genoa ? More so from just a yankee ?

Lucas

 

I've always wondered about this setup. I chartered a cutter rig set up this way with the jib completely covering the staysail. In this case, it didn't seam as though the staysail was doing anything. Up or down made no difference. It sure looked cool though.

Our boat is cutter rigged with a proper jib and staysail. In fact, the jib clew is so high off the deck you can't reach it once the sail is hoisted. In tandem with the staysail, performance is sweet. Here's a good shot of our headsails: http://sail2live.com/boats/sonadora/pictures/sonadora_sailing1.jpg.

We sail with all sails up to about 20kts. After that, we reef the main and sail with staysail. We've tried it with all sails up in 20kts. Fairly boisterous sailing, but not any faster/closer than with main/staysail.

One thing for sure, unless it's really blowing we avoid sailing to windward with main alone. It's anyone's guess what will happen when trying to tack.

 

On my island packet the difference between just the jenny and having up the staysail too is amazing. The boat points far higher and sails faster. This is mostly due to the fact that there is no slot effect otherwise though. The sheeting angle for the jenny is horrible since it has to be sheeted outside the shrouds. The shrouds are on the outside of the boat as opposed to being right next to the cabin. The staysail basicly gives the main its extra shot of energy that isnt being delivered from the jenny since its so far out. However my recent discovery to the staysails effectivenss is in vain though since i'll have j109 in a week which despite its shorter length far out performs the ocean cruiser.

 

"which despite its shorter length far out performs the ocean cruiser."

Tell us how you like the "performance" when shortning down the head sail alone offshore some night at O'dark 30 ,

when going bald headed neither the autipilot or self steering can't hold the unbalanced boat.

Cruisers are called cruisers because the design compromises favor CRUISING , over mere Flatwater "performance".


FAST FRED

 

Too Sweet, I don't understand. If the sheeting angle for the jenny is horrible without the staysail, it's still horrible with the staysail set, no? I can see that the boat might sail faster, but I don't see how it can sail higher without luffing the jenny. What have I missed?

Dreamer, I had gotten the impression from somewhere that a boat rigged like yours was more likely to have good balance with full main and topsail (yankee) than with full main and staysail. Is there a good reason not to strike the staysail as a first step in reefing? (It would go up again with reefs in the main when the yankee was struck.) Second question: what sails do you fly off the wind?

 

Re "Tell us how you like the "performance" when shortning down the head sail alone offshore some night at O'dark 30 ,"

If the set-up is like many modern cruiser/racer fractionals, all that involves is winding the roller furler in.

If the fractional set-up is one like mine, all that involves (for a considerable change in wind strength) is just reaching for the topmast backstay and giving it a tweak; easing a bit of tweaker to twist off the headsail; maybe bouncing a bit of runner; and easing traveller and mainsheet. Total time; 15 seconds or something. Time out of the cockpit - 0 seconds.

"when going bald headed neither the autipilot or self steering can't hold the unbalanced boat."

Why not? Lots of boats sail with very good balance under mainsail alone. Hell, anything from a Laser to a 28 footer (at least) can sail upwind and reaching with tiller fixed, if you have the boat trimmed right; that's not even using self steering.

My 4,400 lb 28'er will sail herself for years under main alone with the helm secured, upwind or reaching.

I use a headfoil and for singlehanded changes offshore at night, I'm fairly happy with it. I can get the gear on and off quickly and not stuff around on the bow.

Of course, most good fractional riggers will sail as fast and handle at least as well as many cruisers under main alone, so if things get nasty you just drop the whole jib.

 

cutters, sloops + fractionals, oh my.

Hi everyone.

This is one of the most divergent and fracticious threads I have seen. It seems to me that it started out as a question of whether or not a cutter rig could end up pointing higher than a sloop.

Then it turned into whether light, tall, and fast racing (IMS)derived boats are A) less seaworthy, B) more seaworthy,or C) (heresey of heresies) about the same as heavier, full keeled (presumably based on older racing rules) boats.

Before I join the fray (hey. I'm from Detroit ) let me caution all of you on my absolute lack of credentials. First, I have never set foot in a yacht club. Second, I have never sailed beyond sight of land. And third, I have never crewed on a racing boat. The only one thing I can say in my defense is that I have read a lot. That being the flimsiest of defences, let me join the rumble.

I say a good cutter will out point a bad sloop on any day. What I mean by this, is that a sloop that has only one large head sail (redundancy for clarity ) and insufficient luff tension, will have terrible trouble pointing high. It will work, of course, (like my old week ender type did) but will have to fall off a little to do so. Now. My understanding is that the required luff tension on a jib is some exponent of the length of the luff multiplied by its sail area . If that is true, the simple act of shortening the luff wire (on the inner jib, of course) as well as its smaller area may allow it to set much better than the single larger jib. The outer jib will still have the same luff length but maybe 45% less area. Not only that, but it would almost certainly be struck as soon as the wind picks up. Add to that the fact that the inner jibs center of area is now much closer to the luff of the main making it a sort of leading edge flap. It may be empowering the main more than it is getting in the way of the outer jib, thereby allowing the boat to point higher than it used to.
If, in its previous set up, the luff had higher sustainable tension, The large jib would be providing most of the drive and the main would be acting more as a spanker or a mizzen.
If such were the case and both set ups were racing one another up wind, the sloop would be the undisputed champ. Perhaps this is why masthead sloops were so popular while I was growing up. They are better up wind than any other kind of rigid rig. And, if their sail area ratio is kept within reason (about 13 to 16) and the hull is rigid enough to carry it (easy enough to arrange with heavy-light to light-moderate displacement), It can be a very sturdy rig. I read of one boat that had such a rig and was rolled several times, but never lost its mast or suffered any other significant damage to its rig or hull.
The only fractional rig I have experience with is the rigid, 3/4 kind. All the trailerable sail boats I have sailed have had such rigs. None of these boats had a back stay, so the luff on each sagged noticeably. None of them (even my beloved week ender type) pointed very well. But they pointed well enough to do their job. When I wanted to sail really close to the wind, I usually furled the jib. Doing that was also a handy way of reefing as well (which was probably why these boats were so rigged in the first place). With the jib furled, they all had adequate ballance and even good ballance if you gave the center plate lift a few turns. With one reef in the main, the ballance got even better. I sometimes refer to this type of rig as a 'two sail cutter' for this reason.

Bob