Why do people keep on claiming that sailors are conservative about rigs?

No one in particular... just the thread in general.

 

Ketch vs Sloop

In both of these instances I was trying to point out that the ALMIGHTY fractional rig SLOOP RIG that you tout so highly and often, is not without some short comings in a number of sailor's opinions. The ketch has a lot of followers, and might have more if the industry were utilizing it more often. Some of the younger sailors have no idea of what they are missing,...because there are not that many (if any) new production vessels with ketch rigs. That was part of what Eric was saying in that article. In this case we might say the builders (not rule makers) are defining the market, by not providing ketches, ...without the virtues of the ketch rig itself.

Last weekend I went sailing on Randy West's 75' catamaran Ppalu. There were 3 of us on board, and all over the age of 55. The winds were 12-15 starting out and built to around 20 by the time we reached the inlet at Ponce (Daytona, FL). She is ketch rigged and the main spar is only 63' tall. Even then it was a real chore to get that mainsail up, and even more of a chore to drop it back into its 'stack-pack' enclosure when we were trying to negotiate a VERY rough inlet that had a large swell running due to constant eastern winds for the previous 2 days. We had real problems getting that mainsail flaked up onto the boom so we could see how to safely surf those waves in the very restrictive inlet

I found myself imagining what it would have been like had that vessel been rigged as a sloop,....probably a 20 taller mast, and that much bigger of a mainsail.

Then it took 2 of us a good hour to flake, bag, and stow those heavy sails. This is all not conducive to utilizing that vessel on a daysailing basis in anything over the 15 knots of wind, and certainly not short-handed. Randy had been asked to take a potential buyer out the next day, along with the gentleman's kids. He had to cancel out on that outing.

Just reconfirmed my thoughts on my all-furling single-masted ketch.

 

I would say that seamanship is your issue, a 75 foot catarmarans rig problems can all be solved with a pair of 100 hp yanmars rather than with 3 middle age gents. No 75 foot boat is easy to handle when its fresh.

At some point all rigs on big boats become unmanageable by a small crew, with or without mechanical assistance. and in direct proportion to screw ups, wind strength and size.

Ketches are a logical choice to split the loads, so your argument is what exactly.......?

 

I've never, ever said that the "all mighty fractional sloop" doesn't have shortcomings. I've never, ever said that it fits everyone. It does suit some of us, and we are surely allowed to speak out when other people make incorrect claims about it or about other rigs.

The issue that kicked off the thread is that people keep on claiming that sailors' rig choices are governed by conservatism, but they never seem to be able to back up those claims, apart from cherry-picking specific instances in which they personally feel other rigs may be better. Okay, you had problems with Ppalu - but that doesn't mean that other people on other boats are choosing their rigs because they are conservative.

Yes, I realised that Eric's article was about the fact that the industry wasn't offering the ketch rig much any more. But the very fact that sailors have gone from a situation where about 40% of cruising yachts were ketches to a situation where they are a small minority indicates that sailors are not frozen in their rig choice by conservatism as is often claimed. If they were so conservative, they'd still be sailing ketches (or gaff cutters and schooners). As Motorbike says, they are sensible people who have decided that ketches aren't worth the cash, and the builders have listened.

Sure, the industry isn't always right - but they also can err on the side of falling for the latest gee-whizbang trend as well. If we're going to prove they are being too conservative, we're going to have to find better evidence than people have brought up so far, which often gets down to "well, I want to sell this cool new idea that suits me and other people don't want to buy it, so therefore they must be conservative".

This isn't trying to say "my rig is better than your rig" It's trying to say to many fans of 'alternative' rigs "we will respect your personal preference in rig, so please do the same to us without casting aspersions at us and our reasons".

 

Brian can you post a couple of photos taken during your sail on Ppalu?

 

Didn't take along a camera (forgot it). Perhaps the other crew member will send me some images, or post them on Facebook, as he had a large format smart phone.

 

Looking for something else, but ran across this.

 

Yes, rating rules have had an effect on boat design. However, many of the claims made about their effect are codswallop. The implication in your quote that the rules prevented the headstay being moved to leeward is probably one of them.

I note that on the fathead sail thread you wrote "I see a lot of cruising boat folks trying to adopt this latest 'fad'". It seems odd to be claiming that they are conservative on one hand, but that a lot of them are subject to fads on the other hand. So are "a lot" of them following fads, or are they conservative?

The supposedly conservative sailing public tried moving headsail tacks to leeward about in the '60s and early '70s, probably many years before Eric tried it in models. That shows that the real sailors are not as conservative as implied. They abandoned the idea because it doesn't work in reality. Of course, anyone who can windsurf can see what happens when you try to sail higher by dropping the luff too far to leeward- you start sailing backwards.

 

Brian, did they hoist the mizzen on Ppalu during your sail. I notice most ketch owners don't bother much with the mizzen as it makes so little difference to weather. A Roberts 60 ketch used to race in a mixed fleet I sailed in a while back. Sometimes they set the mizzen and sometimes they didn't. The crews consensus was it wasn't worth the effort.

CT249 you may be interested in Russell Browns Proa Jezero with the forestays to leeward. (mostly to keep the mast up) I got the impression the boat sailed well to windward. I'm not sure if the open slot or inclined to weather headsail luff had anything to do with this. The sheeting angle was set at the usual 7 to 10 degrees though.

The Jarcat had a great big "tack track" across the forebeam so you coud put the jib luff anywhere you wanted. Handy down wind as you could get the headsail out from behind the main.

 

Mizzen as a Flap to the overall sailplan

Yes we did raise the mizzen, and it was very effective,...but of course we were on a close reach.

I'm not claiming that the mizzen sail is that effective when close on the wind, but then a lot of cruisers (not racers) do often choose not to go out bashing to weather.

On another hand there are some reasons to reconsider the contribution of a mizzen sail to upwind performance. Could it be considered as potentially acting like a 'flap' to the sail plan as a whole?? Both Tom Speer and Mark Drela are very big fans of flaps,..ie...

"Think One" and Flaps

 

more 'flaps'

Flaps on Chris White's Mastfoil concept

 

Your figure of 2 failures (1 x 30, 1 x 39) in 30 boats (the number of 30's) is shonky statistics.

I'm glad you like Wyliecats, and unstayed rigs, (and "my rigs") so can't understand why you are arguing against them, for the majority of cruisers. I am also not sure why, if you prefer them, you find their advantages to "not be significant"

It is not about which rigs stay up, it is about how much maintenance they require.

Compare the numbers using North Shore 38's which are 10+ years old, sailed regularly, have never had the mast removed for examination, have not replaced any standing rigging and have never had anyone up the mast to check for damage.

You used your sample of 2 very experienced cruising wives to dismiss my comments about average cruising wives.

The values under discussion are those of the majority of cruising sailors, who would like to spend less money, do less maintenance, have easier to sail boats and improve their performance. If you have a more "objective list", or can point out why stayed rigs are better than unstayed rigs for these purposes, for this demographic, please tell us.

You didn't say how often you and your unnamed "experts" recommend rigging renewal on well used boats that are contemplating going offshore?

 

Hi CT249
This video certainly speaks well of the fractional rig use

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ-nBDcMlWs

 

If I think of the changes I have seen in rigs there are quite a few. Compared to the rigs on the family Manly Junior

-wooden mast replaced by alloy mast and boom to carbon to high modulus carbon today
- full battened sails, better batten cars, expensive batten cars to cheaper UHMWPE batten cars,
- wooden battens replaced by x cross section battens, to pulltruded rectangle battens.
- wire/rope halyards replaced by spectra
- almost any wire replaced by spectra
- stainless fittings replaced by moulded glass or carbon fittings
- shrouds/stays replaced by Dynex dux
- turnbuckles replaced by lashings
- terylene dacron replaced or modified with Mylar, Spectra, warp orientated stuff, Carbon, cruise laminate

So almost every part of the yacht rig has been modified apart from its basic structure in many classes where there are no rating rules. That is probably because the stayed sloop rig is such a good rig.

I like tuning my rig, using the stays to hold onto, running under headsail alone downwind, trimming the main for balance upwind, shifting to the staysail as the wind blows up, fanging along under the reacher in a blow and would not trade this rig for another - even if that rig were free.

There has been massive change in rigs over the last few decades but more in build than type. Even with the Wylies, Team Phillips, Freedoms, unstayed rigs have not caught on. The Prouts and John Hitch's X-it with the aft mast rigs did not take over the world. Spectra has as has cruise laminate and carbon chainplates.

In the evolutionary arms race that is the sea some great ideas don't bear fruit. I have eliminated more than half of the "amazing ideas" I put into our boat. They did not translate well into real time use - they were pretty dumb.

I think we have to respect the opinion of the many who decide to build their own boats - free of any accountants or need for sales. These boats are usually built by people like me - who just need to build a boat. Schionnings have sold a few plans for twin unstayed rigs but these have been dwarfed by the desire for normal sloop rigs. If the Radical Bay rig was a fabulous idea then it would have grabbed a few more adherents. If John Hitch's aft mast huge genoa rig was truly fabulous he would have found it easier to sell a few plans or sell his boat, but the loads on the sheet are tremendous and it is not the boat for you if you like to tack at all quickly.

Maybe another reason there are few unstayed rigs is because they are really expensive - or we get told they are. I was in Ushaiai 3 weeks ago and saw Icebird - an amazing looking boat used for Antarctic exploration with an aerorig. On the other side of the wharf was the Ben Lexcen designed Spirit of Sydney, used by the same company to do the same type of trips. The owner, Darryl liked the aerorig but IIRC the cost was something north of US 1.5 million for the mast/boom alone. AND it had quirks like - don't reef the main too much or the boom just comes to windward. And get the preventers rigged quickly to stop it swinging.

The greatest number of masts I have ever seen break is in a large Laser fleet. Carnage occurs regularly in big wind and waves. I know they are not carbon but they show that unstayed masts can break regularly. I probably wouldn't trust a Laser mast over 3 years old. I loved my time sailing the Laser and was good at getting the most out of it but I never wanted an unstayed rig for my own cruising boat yet I did want a wishbone after my experience with windsurfing. I decided to go down the stayed sloop route even with championship experience with an unstayed mast. It was a conscious decision.

cheers

Phil

 

Brian you are aware that the latest iteration of the mast foil doesn't have a flap.

Sounds much modified after failures.

Posted on another forum by the owner of A47 Agility in a thread you participated in.