When NOT to use full length battens?

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by powerabout

You take a hit on IRC for split backstay I am pretty sure so the config was a rating thing.

I think you take a bigger rating whack in IRC for an oversized roach that would require the sail to be dropped in order to tack, not to mention the pain of not powering up properly out of the tack.

Sounds like someone made a large mistake with that sail design if they were planning to buoy race under IRC...

[Zed]

Originally Posted by powerabout

I did a regatta on a Swan 80 a few years back and we had to drop the main down a foot on each tack and then back up....nice not!
22 crew no prob.

I'd be talking to the sail maker...!

[kim s]

Originally Posted by CT 249

For my 2 cents worth, you're only 'wrong' in lumping all fully battened sails together. As we all know, they can vary from conventional small-roach sails that have just had lightweight battens retrofitted to reduce flogging and make stowage easier, to high-load squaretops that require immense mainsheet tension when set on stiff masts. As you said, with some designs there can be limits on shifting the draft, but not with all types of fully-battened sail.

I certainly wouldn't say that a good fully-battened sail is harder to depower when sailing (if worst comes to worst you can twist them off without flogging) but the fact that they can power-up even when the sheet is fully eased can be a problem in some craft when coming into start lines and in other very low-speed situations.

I stand corrected there.
I suppose I do know that there not all the same, but had not thought about in that way.
On the full on big roach boys, they are depowered quite quickly by dumping the sheet rather than the track (trying to grind them back in afterwards when the gun goes off)
As far as this mast breaking bit is concerned, the only real difference I have noticed is that the fully batten rig (especially the big roach) really does power up a lot quicker and I have been on board boats that have broached hard over as they gybe cos people where not concentrating. and I have seen masts go (not sure where they broke) but they are more due to operator incommpitance rather than the fact they where fully battened.

Kim

[gonzo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSIe2w-cQ4s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jibe
http://www.briontoss.com/spartalk/showthread.php?t=314
http://www.kerchevalave.com/cgi-bin/...tasy&replyto=3

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=...&mast-ing-down

[Paul B]

All this effort and you still cannot tell us the specifics of your claim of firsthand knowledge. Not one of your links even anecdotally proves your point. Every post you make seems to trump your earlier posts in bizarre nature.

Originally Posted by gonzo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSIe2w-cQ4s

A video of a Laser sailing in heavy air. No full batten sail. No retrofit to full battens. Mast doesn't break at gooseneck.

If you knew about Laser sailing you would know about this failure mode. It is quite common.

This has nothing to do with your false claims. FAIL.

Originally Posted by gonzo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jibe

I wonder what the point is of posting the Wiki definiion of a gybe?

This has nothing to do with your false claims. FAIL.

Originally Posted by gonzo

http://www.briontoss.com/spartalk/showthread.php?t=314

No mention of how this mast was broken. No mention of full battens. No mention of any retrofit.

This has nothing to do with your false claims. FAIL.

Originally Posted by gonzo

http://www.kerchevalave.com/cgi-bin/...tasy&replyto=3

No mention of use of full battens. No mention of retrofit to a full batten sail. Mast is not broken by gooseneck. Admits incorrect build method, causing scarf joint glue to let go.

This has nothing to do with your false claims. FAIL.

Originally Posted by gonzo

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=...&mast-ing-down

Not during a gybe. No mention of a retrofit to full battens. Obvious rigging failure, mast breaks at hounds first, does not break at gooseneck.

This has nothing to do with your false claims. FAIL.

[gonzo]

The Sharpie 500 class was designed for full battened mains. The wear and tear on the mast track and sail lead owners to change to short battens. These were cotton sails and wooden masts. The groove for the bolt rope would wear and split. The forward section of the pocket would wear and the battens poked through. The battens would also snap if flogging in strong winds. They were made of ash or oak.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by gonzo

The Sharpie 500 class was designed for full battened mains. The wear and tear on the mast track and sail lead owners to change to short battens. These were cotton sails and wooden masts. The groove for the bolt rope would wear and split. The forward section of the pocket would wear and the battens poked through. The battens would also snap if flogging in strong winds. They were made of ash or oak.

So your point is people should not use a sail type because it didn't work well in a class if you used 1950s technology to support it?

Yes, this post of yours does trump your last one in the bizarre factor. At least you are consistent.

By the way, you have yet to tell us the specifics of the retrofits to full battens that you have seen that caused masts to break. Why are you avoiding this?

[gonzo]

I'm afraid you will make me cry again Paul B. I can't sleep because of you being so mean to me.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by powerabout

I did a regatta on a Swan 80 a few years back and we had to drop the main down a foot on each tack and then back up..

Don't know if it's done or not, but imagine if, instead of a single backstay, there were twin stays attached to a spreader at the top of the mast...

[gonzo]

Some boats have a fiberglass batten that keeps the slack of the backstay from getting hooked on the sail. However, you need to loosen the backstay and tighten it when you tack. The tension on the backstay keeps tension on the forestay and also controls mast bend.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Some boats have a fiberglass batten that keeps the slack of the backstay from getting hooked on the sail. However, you need to loosen the backstay and tighten it when you tack. The tension on the backstay keeps tension on the forestay and also controls mast bend.

You have obviously never sailed on a boat with a backstay flicker.

You obviously don't understand the basics of how that type of rig is set up and works.

[gonzo]

Paul B has a little problem. I can send some cheese to go along with your whine. Post something relevant to these threads.

[Zed]

A big crane can work sometimes.

[tamkvaitis]

ukhalsey - a realy respected sailmaker states this abut full lenght battens

We use the term Batmain to describe a mainsail with full-length battens, meaning the battens extend all the way across the sail from leech to luff. Full-length battens have many virtues for cruising sailors including better shape holding ability, longer life and easier handling. The sails last longer because the full-length battens prevent flogging — the violent snapping back and forth that happens when you're tacking, reefing, hoisting or lowering your sail. As conventional sails flog, the sailcloth breaks down, especially at the front end of the battens where the leech of the sail “hinges” back and forth. Flogging is the prime culprit in sail wear-and-tear. The full-length battens induce a smooth airfoil shape to the sail, which improves performance in all conditions. In light air the Batmain holds a smooth airfoil shape instead of sagging like a wrinkled bed sheet.
Also, the Batmain won’t slat as the boat rolls in the waves. In heavy air the Batmain doesn’t flog when the sheet is eased out to reduce heeling. The Batmain does not flail and snap when depowered, the silence is a pleasant surprise. Full-length battens also restrict the draft of the sail from moving aft in heavy air when sailing upwind. Downwind, the full-length battens hold out the leech of the main giving you more pro-jected sail area.

And this is their sugestion about racing mainsails.

The Powerhead main is our long-life racing design. Whether you are buying a Tape-Drive, Tri-Radial or Cross-Cut main, the Powerhead’s full-length top batten gives you many of the durability benefits of a full-batten main (UK’s Batmain), while offering performance benefits. The Powerhead gives you more control over the shape of your main, especially the draft's depth and fore-and-aft positioning because the full length battens prevent the sail from changing shape much. The Powerhead is easier to trim than a full-batten main since the leading edge of the sail is free to luff. And the Powerhead is a lighter sail than a Batmain since it uses shorter battens and no special luff hardware.
The long top batten stabilizes the highly loaded head area, and stabilizes the leech allowing UK to build a maximum-roach sail that gives you more sail area. The full-length top batten also increases longevity by dampening the damaging effects of luffing and by preventing the draft of the sail from moving aft over the years.
Along with the full-length top batten, Powerheads feature the new longer-length battens in the lower positions. The longer battens support the leech better and eliminate a hard ridge that sometimes develops at the inboard end of the battens as sails age. Powerheads that are used with lazy jacks or the Dutchman ® flaking system can have the bottom batten full-length to help catch the sail better as it comes down.

Sailed both types of sail and don't realy liked the full battened version. These sails are very nice If you get the right batens with right tightness and right wind speed. Othervise it is a headache

[powerabout]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Don't know if it's done or not, but imagine if, instead of a single backstay, there were twin stays attached to a spreader at the top of the mast...

Yes i have raced on previous gen TP52 with split backstay, its a pain in the arse as exrea crew needed and in IRC ( as this was racing) you pay for it so the boat was converted to single backstay which is much easier and safer as you are not dropping it in each tack.
The sail plan also modified to suit.

No big deal if the're all hired guns but otherwise...