what i do

[cookie munster]

You guys are reading a lot more in my words than what I am actually saying. My point is that there is a way of estimating whether the restoration will cost 20k or 120k. The links are just informative, so that Serge can learn about building methods. I don't see any need to defend claims I did not make.

[PAR]

The is no

simple way to estimate the costs.

It would be nice if there was, but you have to know what's wrong, to know what to fix and this isn't easy to determine, let alone cost out. Clearly, the owner of this yacht isn't capable of making the evaluation, so I'm not sure what you're aiming at, but generalized statements like these, are usually fruitless. I'm quite experienced and have never costed a rebuild or repair the nature of the one he's facing with any level of accuracy.

The best we can do, is hope our clients are understanding enough to realize things crop up unexpectedly, the repairs are fluid in nature and prices change. Anyone that's done this sort of work, knows darn well what happens once you start to open the "can of worms". Rather the price points, I work "task points" into these sort of projects. This way each "job" gets addressed, some with surprises and possibly a lose on my part for not seeing it in advance, but others I get lucky and things work out better then I planned and I can save some effort or materials.

[cookie munster]

Originally Posted by PAR

It would be nice if there was, but you have to know what's wrong, to know what to fix and this isn't easy to determine, let alone cost out. Clearly, the owner of this yacht isn't capable of making the evaluation, so I'm not sure what you're aiming at, but generalized statements like these, are usually fruitless. I'm quite experienced and have never costed a rebuild or repair the nature of the one he's facing with any level of accuracy.

The best we can do, is hope our clients are understanding enough to realize things crop up unexpectedly, the repairs are fluid in nature and prices change. Anyone that's done this sort of work, knows darn well what happens once you start to open the "can of worms". Rather the price points, I work "task points" into these sort of projects. This way each "job" gets addressed, some with surprises and possibly a lose on my part for not seeing it in advance, but others I get lucky and things work out better then I planned and I can save some effort or materials.

I agree that it is difficult to estimate costs accurately. Especially if you have to charge for labor. nearly impossible then, I'd say.
The point I am trying to make is that once you have an estimate of how much he needs to replace (best done by if an expert surveyor), from there you can sort of figure out how much material costs will be for restoration. So, if an expert estimates that about 60% needs to be replaced (with a margin of error of 20% more or less) it could be that he needs to replace 40% if he's lucky, 80% if he isn't. If he does his own work, he does not need to send himself an invoice for labor, in which case he's probably looking at what, 12000 bucks raw material, perhaps? Plus or minus 4000? I find such an estimate fair enough when starting on a project of my own.

Now if you need to include labor time and wages, it could be anywhere between 500 and 10000 hours, at about 40$ an hr for example, the costs can range anywhere between 20000 and 400000 bucks! In that case you won't hear me make any predictions, because the range is just too large.

[cookie munster]

And, to back up that I am not adding new ideas here, a part of my original post:

If you do pretty much everything yourself, costs won't be through the roof.

No, sorry Cookie.

I did one dozen old ships and most of the labour was done by volunteers (members of the association), all professionals in the required jobs, many many materials were donated by the industry.
My wife was the general manager of a shipyard, where we got sometimes free drydocking, use of equipment etc. and on several occasions half of the labourers spent their weekends assisting our tasks.
That all added a immeasurable value to the restaurations.
And still we always ended up far above the estimated cost.

I do´nt see any sense, that you try to insist on your premature, and proven wrong, approach.
I do´nt want to hammer on you, but it is dubious and counterproductive to tell a novice such nonsense.

[cookie munster]

Originally Posted by apex1

I do´nt see any sense, that you try to insist on your premature, and proven wrong, approach.
I do´nt want to hammer on you, but it is dubious and counterproductive to tell a novice such nonsense.

Well, it's unjustified and insulting claims that make me feel compelled to respond. If you don't want to hammer someone, don't.

Originally Posted by cookie munster

Well, it's unjustified and insulting claims that make me feel compelled to respond. If you don't want to hammer someone, don't.

Unjustified?
When a novice seeks professional advice here, the Forum tries to provide that. When one pops up with a conflicting opinion he must be aware questioning and denial. And maybe rethink just his statement.

So, when all those which have a lot of experience in restoring boats and ships, when those which do it everyday for a living, agree about the problem of estimating cost, only one amateur has a different opinion, they have to keep their mouth shut?

I fear your superficial and for a novice rather dangerous "calculation" could have caused "insults" when Serge would have followed it.

Regards
Richard

[Boston]

Originally Posted by apex1

I did one dozen old ships and most of the labour was done by volunteers (members of the association), all professionals in the required jobs, many many materials were donated by the industry.
My wife was the general manager of a shipyard, where we got sometimes free drydocking, use of equipment etc. and on several occasions half of the labourers spent their weekends assisting our tasks.
That all added a immeasurable value to the restaurations.
And still we always ended up far above the estimated cost.

interesting thread

apex
early on in my own building career I had the same issues of coming in low on my estimates
what I did to help combat the issue was to add up the various jobs projected costs vs the actual and average out the difference
I then added 20% to that and adjusted my bids in the following years to reflect the errors of the previous year
didnt take long before I was putting out far more accurate bids

even if you are not always able to identify the specific error in a bid
simply knowing the occurrence rate of the error and its average amount can be enough to effectively compensate for it in subsequent projects

cheers
B

Of course Boston.

As PAR already said, you come closer to the truth with more and more experience.

But we all know, when you open the "can" you have the next issue.
We once replaced a simple fastener holding our steam waterboiler in the galley. Estimated cost: zero
it was just a piece of metal to weld on. But we had to dismantle the whole thingy, and discovered a cracked steam hose inside the wall / bulkhead causing some more issues over a long period.
We ended up at about 50.000 DM. So much to cost ZERO!

You can buy the 120 years old "Consul Howsoever" Villa with 250 m² at 120.000 and believe it is a gift.
But we both know that was only a nice facade and the right to invest, what we bought, not much more.
And in the end we have a 400.000 bill, a damaged back and a nice Villa with a value of 300.000.
A newbuild would have cost 220.000 instead.

Buy a old Jaguar XJ 12 from 1970 at 7.000 and restore it. You end up with a 80.000 bill and a value of 45.000.
At 45.000 you could have bought one in pristine condition and enjoyed having it for three years longer.

Must I lengthen the list of examples?

Regards
Richard

[hoytedow]

Experience is the hardest teacher, but the best learned lesson. Too bad people will not learn from the experience of others.

[Boston]

and thus the value of some of the threads concerning screw ups of all types
my personal faves

slowly I am learning whats up with building a boat before I start by reading through the disaster threads

I wish this guy they best but until he gets that survey there is no telling whats up with that boat

but I suspect he is taking the big plunge from the 10 meter platform
rather than stick a toe in the water first

If I were him I'd slap some preservative on the boat and get it over a dirt floor and under a roof asap
then I'd focus on the engine repair while learning all I could about the condition of the boat and costing out the repairs for materials and time

no reason it cant be a labor of love but it needs to be understood as such

cheers
B

[Ramona]

Interesting discussion but a little off course.

This is an 8 metre yacht bought for $5000. Survey would cost between $1000 to $2000. Shipwright is going to charge about $60 an hour. Finished article is going to be worth about $18,000 but will probably realise less in the present market.

Boat is on the hard and has a roof over it.

[Boston]

I remember making those screw ups a long time ago when I first started
just wish Ild been able to keep at it instead of turning to the residential stuff
its been so long ago actually that I'd be just as likely to make them again
I also remember some keyed hook scarfs that you just kinda scratched your head at for a while. Then start in with drilling and chiseling or what ever it takes. Thing is I can understand the guys desire to build something and having trained lots of enthusiastic novices I just prefer to hold out hope that his survey comes in with at least some good news.

he might even try
http://www.dngoodchild.com/title_lis...sail_boats.htm
find a boat of sufficiently similar characteristics
and build that one
and salvage the usable bits and pieces off his existing unit
then he is not incurring the costs of restoration and still making good use of the boat he has

it he is dying to build
if not then you are all right on about buying something in fully operational form being the cheapest way to go given the current market

I mention the disaster threads because by reading through them its easier to see why you guys are saying what you are
not only are some of them dam funny in a twisted kind of way
but its cheaper to learn from the mistakes of others that can be found in these threads

[Landlubber]

"This is an 8 metre yacht bought for $5000. Survey would cost between $1000 to $2000. Shipwright is going to charge about $60 an hour. Finished article is going to be worth about $18,000 but will probably realise less in the present market.

Boat is on the hard and has a roof over it."


..... hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!

[PAR]

Lets see what the "old man" has to say. He'll likely have a clue about what it needs and maybe can wet nurse the new owner along for a while. We all should so lucky to have this (a well skilled old salt for advise) at our disposal.