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  #46  
Old 03-12-2017, 10:25 PM
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Angélique Angélique is offline
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Originally Posted by valery gaulin View Post

This is what I am talking about!

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=1Muh6-NNNH0
That's a 500 W laser there, here's some info about Laser Rust Removers, and the prices for a set, the 20 W version for € 45 K seems a bit slow . . .
Quote:
Low Power Range (20 W - 100 W): € 45 to € 95 K

Mid Power Range (500 W): € 245 K

High End (1000 W): € 380 K
Are Laser Cleaning Devices Consumer Products ?

Laser Cleaning devices are are aimed at Business to Business customers. Laser Cleaning devices are not consumer products. They are use in industry for industry. Laser Cleaning is very application specific. It is not a wonder tool that cleans everything and not suitable for large areas. If there are cheaper ways to clean something, you or your account/business advisor/partner, sibling will find it. Entry level machines start at roughly € 50,000. Only if nothing else works and there is enough value in the components being cleaning should laser cleaning be considered. An exception is made where you have identified a market or a specific need, and as such want to offer a laser cleaning service, be it rust removal, mold cleaning, classic car restoration, agricultural machinery cleaning, monuments restoration, etc. However a business plan is strongly advised and in any case is required (not by us) to the leasing agency or bank who will fund such a machine. This is why we request your company credentials, including business website and business address.
See also: Laser Age ---> Laser Cleaning ---> Laser Cleaning Product Line - - - Laser Age TV
P.S. - See also: P-Laser ---> P-Laser 1,000 W ---> the P-Laser YouTube links are OK

Warning: - the website - http : // www . p - laser . com / - seems to be - infected - at the time of this posting - at least for me . .
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  #47  
Old 03-12-2017, 10:34 PM
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brian eiland brian eiland is offline
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Originally Posted by Ilan Voyager View Post
About the non rusting nordic yachts (specially Dutch who are high masters) it's very simple; lot of work of preparation, premium paints, and lot of care ny the owners. The marine steels they have help a lot. But the most important is the high quality of craftsmanship.
So you don't feel that it has much to do with some of the much improved modern coatings available??...of course in addition to the proper surface preparation which is ALWAYS important in any painting job.

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The French have switched to aluminium 45 years ago. Tabarly Pen Duick race sailboats incited to the alumimium use and created another tradition. Also Pechiney sold marine alloys at good prices during decades, the famous AUG3 and AUG4. With the Pechiney prices alu became soon competitive with steel.
People saw also that alumimium is easy to cut, to form and does not need blasting. Many hours are saved and it's not dirty like the steel The advent of MIGS for alu around 80 made alu welding an easy task.
I once captained a 60 foot Chris Craft Roamer vessel made of alum. It was a real job trying to keep up with all of the dis-similar metals of thru-hulls etc, ...and it was a real problem and expense isolating the copper based anti-fouling paints from those alum hulls.
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  #48  
Old 03-13-2017, 08:22 AM
M&M Ovenden M&M Ovenden is offline
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Could one of the big difference between the aging of North American steel boats and Northern European steel boats be relative to climate/water temperature? Temperature has an effect on rate of corrosion, it also affects growth on hulls, possibly affecting the coatings. There would also be less UV affecting coatings in Northern countries.
Anyway, I'm just throwing an idea; could the main difference be environmental?

cheers,
Murielle
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  #49  
Old 03-13-2017, 09:58 AM
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Angélique Angélique is offline
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In the Netherlands there are a lot of small steel boats, but the media and the internet in general are acting as a filter for the bad ones I believe.

Pretty and well kept boats are more likely to be photographed and posted on the web and in magazines.

Consequently this creates a distorted impression of the average condition of the boats over there, just like it happens everywhere else.

Check out the steel ones for sale linked below, and compare them to similar listings in North America, note that the small pictures usally hide a lot . .

Currently the link gives for me 521 Sailboats of which 72 are Steel Built, which is 14 % of this listing, so not that much here I think . .

Example: 1974 steel Jongert L 11 m x B 3 m, the first bad picture is of 2008 and the rest is of 2017 it says, not sure what we see on the last one . .

P.S. - BTW, note Jeanette and Johanna seem to be in a bidding race there . .

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  #50  
Old 03-13-2017, 10:10 AM
TANSL TANSL is offline
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Angélique, it seems to me that you have hit the nail : the perfidious north Europeans, using tricks to make their ships seem better and more cared for than they really are. Even the very evil, foreseeing the invention of the internet, were dedicated to take great care of them so that in the low resolution photos in internet, that would come with the years, they look very beautiful.
Excuse me, please, for this joke.
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  #51  
Old 03-13-2017, 10:19 AM
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Angélique Angélique is offline
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Originally Posted by TANSL View Post

Excuse me, please, for this joke.
- - - - - - - -
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  #52  
Old 03-13-2017, 10:53 AM
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Angélique Angélique is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angélique View Post

. . . . Currently the link gives for me 521 Sailboats . . . .
I'm not sure this is a boat sales ad or a contact ad, in her other ads she tells she's a single grandma and her name is Angelique . .

TANSL, please give her a call . . . - (replace the first 0 by +31 when calling from abroad to the Netherlands)

Quote:
1978 - Plastivella Kudu - L 7,85 m - B 2,85 m - D 1,35 m - H 11 m
Met pijn in mijn hart moet ik de zeilboot wegdoen: als vrouw alleen kom ik er te weinig aan toe en het is zonde als er niet met deze zeilboot gezeild wordt!
=
With pain in my heart I have to sell the sailboat: as a woman alone I use it too little, and it's a shame if there's no sailing with this sailboat!





Note (in pic 1) the guy on the aft deck taking a photo forward, and there's also a lot of bread on the table for a woman alone . .
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  #53  
Old 03-13-2017, 11:06 AM
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Angélique Angélique is offline
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BTW, that 1978 GRP boat sure looks pretty good . .
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  #54  
Old 03-13-2017, 12:13 PM
Ilan Voyager Ilan Voyager is offline
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"@ Ilan Voyager: This is also the impression I have big yard would avoid to sandblast. The special gun you are talking about to prep the welds I think I seen it on youtube. It is some sort of electrical laser blasting gun. Cant find it anymore. But that is probably the way to go."

No it was a sandblaster but with a box enclosing it. As said TASL most naval welds do not need sand blasting.
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  #55  
Old 03-13-2017, 12:43 PM
Ilan Voyager Ilan Voyager is offline
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@Brian "I once captained a 60 foot Chris Craft Roamer vessel made of alum. It was a real job trying to keep up with all of the dis-similar metals of thru-hulls etc, ...and it was a real problem and expense isolating the copper based anti-fouling paints from those alum hulls.
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How someone is so stupid to use a copper antifouling on a alu hull? The fittings were in cheap brass? And the neutral of the electric circuit bolted on the hull like on a car? When maintained properly alu hulls are extremely durable, I know many 40 years old yachts and patrol boats of the navy in perfect shape, but you must have some knowledge about galvanic corrosion...With the electronic anodes it's now a breeze.
The best voyaging sail monos made in France are un alu. The Dutch and German are also very good with this material.
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  #56  
Old 03-13-2017, 01:23 PM
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Angélique Angélique is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilan Voyager View Post

. . . . . . When maintained properly alu hulls are extremely durable, I know many 40 years old yachts and patrol boats of the navy in perfect shape, but you must have some knowledge about galvanic corrosion...With the electronic anodes it's now a breeze. . . . . . .
Well, your neighbour, tied up next to you on the same quay, must not produce any stray currents leaking through the wet ropes and the quay and then attacking your alu hull through the water . . - How to prevent that . . ? ?
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  #57  
Old 03-13-2017, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Over the years of course the US switched to fiberglass, which is a pretty reasonable alternative to wood. Meaning wood scantlings can be pretty much kept the same when building in fiberglass. But in N Europe where steel was already prevalent people had gotten used to the advantages of steel, and since boat buying is a very conservative undertaking have simply stuck with it.
You are correct Stumble. Another factor is aesthetics. The US is pretty deep into fiberglass, composites, carbon, etc. and leverages 5 axis routers to fabricate the plugs for some pretty fancy & artistic looking hulls, decks & other structures. By comparison, the steel hulls are simpler designs and are primarily used for utility, cargo & military vessels, though some nautical architects still offer plans for steel & aluminum plate yachts & other boats. There are a small number of shipyards that will take on these projects (typically by request). For these reasons, I doubt steel will see serious market traction in the yacht market for the foreseeable future.
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  #58  
Old 03-13-2017, 01:40 PM
Ilan Voyager Ilan Voyager is offline
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@Brian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilan Voyager View Post
About the non rusting nordic yachts (specially Dutch who are high masters) it's very simple; lot of work of preparation, premium paints, and lot of care ny the owners. The marine steels they have help a lot. But the most important is the high quality of craftsmanship.
So you don't feel that it has much to do with some of the much improved modern coatings available??...of course in addition to the proper surface preparation which is ALWAYS important in any painting job."
Yes, so I wrote premium paints, and the high quality of craftsmanship, which includes knowledge of the material, final preparation and paint. The perfect finition is part of the craftmanship. Do you imagine a good shipyard doing shitty paint jobs?
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  #59  
Old 03-13-2017, 02:19 PM
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Angélique Angélique is offline
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Steel boats kept in like new condition in the Netherlands is often also due to little usage and always storing it in a boat house, here's a 1991 Schokker for example . . .

I wonder though how that battery is securely fixed, maybe at the bottom edges . . ? ? ?

Quote:
Schip ligt veel in schiphuis en wordt verkocht wegens gevorderde leeftijd van de eigenaar.
=
Boat lies much in a boathouse and is being sold due to the advanced age of the owner.

- - - - click pic to enlarge - - - -



- - - - click pic to enlarge - - - -



- - - - click pic to enlarge - - - -
P.S. - The Dutch link has more pictures as the above English one in the upper line.
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  #60  
Old 03-13-2017, 02:36 PM
Ilan Voyager Ilan Voyager is offline
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Originally Posted by Angélique View Post
Well, your neighbour, tied up next to you on the same quay, must not produce any stray currents leaking through the wet ropes and the quay and then attacking your alu hull through the water . . - How to prevent that . . ? ?
There are a lot of myths about alu.
To have a galvanic corrosion there must be a coupling, ie the circuit must be closed. A stray current does not go far in sea water unless you have a stray current with a big voltage and lot of amps, the kind of thing that make jump the breaker. There a fact called resistivity in electricity...I imagine how many amps can pass through a rope which must be consciously kept wet with lot a sea water and maybe one or two kilogs of kosher salt to help. Quays are generally in stone or concrete materials not very good for electricity. On it's a marine and the floating decks are generally in polyester or concrete and alu.
2 possibilities, first a rare one the alu hull is totally bare and has not anodes, even in that case the surface is so big that the current per m2 is close to zero and the erosion also.
Second case, the hull is well painted and has 10 kg of anodes, the anodes will do their work.
Last and modern possibility you have an electronic system of anodes that will tell you there is a stray current. Furthermore the hull is perfectly painted...If you can buy and install an electronic system of anodes you can afford a top paint.
I know only 2 serious cases of electrolysis by external factor.
First at the harbor of Concarneau where an alu boat stayed several months touching a wooden boat sheeted with 50 kg of copper foil as antifouling.
The second case was Manureva, ex Pen Duick IV, the trimaran, which stayed "abandonned" almost one year moored with a CHAIN to a rusting floating dock at Papeete around 1977...
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