Volvo ocean race yacht designers

[schakel]

Just had the first two light wind in port races in Alicante:

Besides the efforts the teams made:

What is designers ranking?

1 Bruce Farr with Telephonica Blue
2 Bruce Farr with Telephonica White
3 Botin & Carcreek with Puma
4 Juan Kouyoumdjian with Ericson 4
5 Reighel & Pugh Green Dragon
6 Juan Kouyoumdjian with the old ABN AMRO 1 now Delta Loyd
7 Juan Kouyoumdjian with Ericson 3
8 Rob Humphreys Yacht Design Team Russia.

Now waiting a week before the real work begins and the long leg towards Cape Town begins.

I am not the one who decides who designs what but why is Americas Cup winning yacht designer Judel & Vrolijk never part in these VOR boats?

Just asking

[bobothehobo]

J/V was slated to design Peter DeRidder's Mean Machine VO70 but the team never got sponsorship. I would have liked to have seen what Rolf came up with for a volvo 70. The design of their IRC 66 Numbers for Dan Myers has done extremely well as their TP52 (Platoon) and of course Allinghi has done ok.

[Brent Swain]

How many keels have each had fall off, or boats that capsized and remained that way?
Brent

[DGreenwood]

If you look at the list, B&C and Rob Humphreys are the only ones that don't have a fairly extensive history in designing canting keel ocean racers. A library of data and an understanding of the engineering are very valuable advantages.
It is a very different beast than an AC boat. That is not to say that Judel Vrolijk are not very capable at such a design.

Brent Swain---Is that really the most interesting response you can come up with to shakels question?---a really tiresome agenda I'm afraid.

[schakel]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

How many keels have each had fall off, or boats that capsized and remained that way?
Brent

Although it may sound strange I agree with your remark. I am still looking for a racing yacht design that is seaworthy under any circumstances. I found it a "Russian roulette" last Artemis Transat that 2 yachts that were successful, to know Foncia Michel Desjoyeaux and PRB Vincent Rioux, were out of the race because of problems with the canting keels and dagger boards.

Although I am more and more aware that these racing boats always will be like that. A ballast on a high righting moment is always a vulnerable thing when you hit something. When you construct a canting keel you add a vulnerable pivoting mechanism.

I am always fond of the underwater ship of the Colin Archer that doesn't stumbles on his own keel and is not so very vulnerable against whales

But unfortunately it's very difficult to design a racing sailing yacht like that.
You end up with a very physically demanding surfboard like ship which is very light and gains very high speeds to downwind courses but that will be a nightmare tacking. Just like surfboards actually.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by schakel

...but that will be a nightmare tacking. Just like surfboards actually.

Not looking to start a fist fight here, Schakel, but were you really referring to surfboards with your comment?

As a guy who has surfed for 49 years now, I can share with you that surfboards are not hard to "tack". Let me know the next time you may be on the West Coast of the USA and I'll be happy to take you out on a sweet handling longboard for a lesson.

Next thing you know, Ol' Schakel will be yelling in the Green Room after a wicked bottom turn. ;-)

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design
www.lunadadesign.com

[schakel]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

Not looking to start a fist fight here, Schakel, but were you really referring to surfboards with your comment?

As a guy who has surfed for 49 years now, I can share with you that surfboards are not hard to "tack". Let me know the next time you may be on the West Coast of the USA and I'll be happy to take you out on a sweet handling longboard for a lesson.

Next thing you know, Ol' Schakel will be yelling in the Green Room after a wicked bottom turn. ;-)

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design
www.lunadadesign.com

Hi Chris,

That would be nice. But when you compare it with upwind sailing of modern sharp sailing yachts it's just something else. I refer to the custom boards with one large fin at the end used for high-speed windsurfing. They are not easy to handle upwind and they are not fast upwind. Therefore you need a dagger board with a sword in it.

The ultra fast Colin Archer I have on the drawing board has a very small underwater ship compared to the board shown. Perhaps I give it a dagger board that pops up when you hit something.

I think I'll do that.

And the wicked bottom turn is something I have to practice. I am going to windsurf with my son one of these days. But I am more the windsurf crack of the Ten Cate "Windsurfer" and Mistal Competition days. Although I surfed some nice custom build own shaped (by others) boards as well.

I visited your site: So you went with Thomas Coville on Sodebo. What is frightening? I mean I saw pictures of Lady Ellen McArthur when crossing with King Fisher 2 and every wave she hits with high speeds she seems to brace herself in her chair on a good ending. I suppose it can be like that. But when nice and smooth these babies are the fastest thing on earth of course. Except for the kiters who just claimed the 49.8 knots record of course.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by schakel

I visited your site: So you went with Thomas Coville on Sodebo. What is frightening? I mean I saw pictures of Lady Ellen McArthur when crossing with King Fisher 2 and every wave she hits with high speeds she seems to brace herself in her chair on a good ending. I suppose it can be like that. But when nice and smooth these babies are the fastest thing on earth of course. Except for the kiters who just claimed the 49.8 knots record of course.

Now, I see the origins of the surfboard comment in your previous post. My apologies for running off on a tangent on that.

Seeing as how this is a VOR designers thread, I'm not going to get off on another hijack with a long winded thing on Sodeb'O.

Suffice to say, she is powerful beyond anything I've ever sailed before. We were out in the Bay of Quiberon on the day we sailed. The wind was blowing at a steady 19-20 knots the whole time. Covilles crew had taken two reefs in the main with the Solent jib up. We were running at a steady 26 knots with the bottom three feet of the main hull in the water. We took a few heavy gusts during the day as there was an approaching storm out in the Atlantic (the next day, it was blowing 35-40 knots out on the same water) The sea state was a comfortable ground swell of about five feet with fairly long period between crests.

Sodeb'O was just loafing along, literally, with huge amounts of speed available if Coville wanted to really crank it up. I got to drive the boat for something like 15 minutes that afternoon and it was an experience from another planet. I'll be posting that part of the trip to France report on my blog in the next day, or so, when I share what it's like to go sailing on Sodeb'O.

Thanks, guys, for the short timeout there. Now, back to the VOR chatter.

Chris Ostlind
www.lunadadesign.com

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

How many keels have each had fall off, or boats that capsized and remained that way?
Brent

I don't think Farr or J/V have ever had a boat that capsized and remained turtled apart from the Farr 1 ton that hit Hawaii (not a safe thing to do in yachts) or the Farr 38 that was not built to Farr's design (as proven in the inquest).

How many Farrs are sailing the world's oceans? Many thousands. It's like blaming Toyotas for the fact that they are involved in more accidents than Trabants; or like pointing out that a high proportion of Ferraris fail to finish the Monaco Grand Prix and therefore saying that all Ferraris are crud.

My '71 Kombi did more miles between breakdowns than the current world F1 champ and the current World Rally champ combined. Which is a better built car?

I've never pulled a hamstring in my life. Olympic athletes and pro footballers do it regularly. Does that mean that they are less fit than I am? Or does it mean that pro competitors push to the limits and therefore find their limits?

[marshmat]

like pointing out that a high proportion of Ferraris fail to finish the Monaco Grand Prix and therefore saying that all Ferraris are crud.

I'm reminded of the custom Ferrari-logo mallet that a few owners of these machines keep in the cockpit, used to give the starter a good whack when it fails to crank

Juan K and Farr dominated the last VOR too. These are very specialized boats, with a lot of expensive engineering research backing them up. Farr and Juan K seem to have demonstrated perhaps a greater than usual willingness to push the envelope a bit farther than it really should be pushed. The nature of the VO 70 rule demands that the envelope be pushed like this.

It's interesting to note that the winner of the last VOR was the only second-generation boat in the fleet; ABN AMRO 2 had been extensively tested under sail long before her sister ship (which won the race) hit the water. That was a big advantage. And I think it does put Juan K a bit ahead of the others this time around with the Ericsson boats.

It is also interesting to note that ABN AMRO 1 did not suffer any keel, mast, daggerboard or other major equipment failures, while most of the rest of the fleet was stranded at some point during the race. I noticed the 'bomb doors' and associated nasty keel hinge system are banned this year, so we should see fewer keel failures....

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by marshmat

It is also interesting to note that ABN AMRO 1 did not suffer any keel, mast, daggerboard or other major equipment failures, ....

It was not highly publicized, but the Black Betty had a big delam issue in the forward panels during one of the legs. The word is they basically had to re-build a good portion of the bow sections.

This was after they had the most pre-race miles and two boat testing program.

in the 30 years(zakkly) I have been following ocean racing, there has not been one crewed yacht lost,
but the yacht, or rather box, that springs to mind in the Southern was a steel yacht called Icebird(lLewis) that split,
probably built by one BS) tee hee, hadda go into McMurdo where the yanks welded it properly

[schakel]

Originally Posted by CT 249

I don't think Farr or J/V have ever had a boat that capsized and remained turtled apart from the Farr 1 ton that hit Hawaii (not a safe thing to do in yachts) or the Farr 38 that was not built to Farr's design (as proven in the inquest).

How many Farrs are sailing the world's oceans? Many thousands. It's like blaming Toyotas for the fact that they are involved in more accidents than Trabants; or like pointing out that a high proportion of Ferraris fail to finish the Monaco Grand Prix and therefore saying that all Ferraris are crud.

My '71 Kombi did more miles between breakdowns than the current world F1 champ and the current World Rally champ combined. Which is a better built car?

I've never pulled a hamstring in my life. Olympic athletes and pro footballers do it regularly. Does that mean that they are less fit than I am? Or does it mean that pro competitors push to the limits and therefore find their limits?

Movistar in VOR 2005 2006 got such a problems with the keel they had to abandon in leg 7. Here is the wiki about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_O...e_2005_to_2006

Sure the designers push the envelope and the development of the canting keel for racing yachts is definitely a winning idea. But I still found it annoying that during the Artemis Transat Vincent Rioux and Michel Desjoujeaux were unable to finish because of problems with the keel. I read one hit a whale and the other a Baskin shark. To predict who will win a canting keel ocean race is merely a matter of luck then of the skill of yacht designer and skipper. I know the development is far from over and I hope during the Volvo Ocean Race '08 - '09 and the Vendee Globe we will see more reliable results

[schakel]

Four boats passed the first point gate at Fernando de Noronha>

1 Reighel & Pugh Green Dragon
2 Juan Kouyoumdjian with Ericson 4 at 5 nm
3 Botin & Carcreek with Puma at 6 nm
4 Bruce Farr with Telephonica Black at 8 nm
5 Bruce Farr with Telephonica Blue at 67 nm
6 Juan Kouyoumdjian with Ericson 3 at 121 nm
7 Juan Kouyoumdjian with the old ABN AMRO 1 now Delta Loyd at 142 nm
8 Rob Humphreys Yacht Design Team Russia at at 171 nm

Not a bad debut for Reighel & Pugh in VOR! But their experience in Maxi's like the unbelieveable Alfa romeo gives them a kick-start I guess.

But the race race is tight and it comes to the crew and navigator as well.
This is getting good!

[Brent Swain]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

in the 30 years(zakkly) I have been following ocean racing, there has not been one crewed yacht lost,
but the yacht, or rather box, that springs to mind in the Southern was a steel yacht called Icebird(lLewis) that split,
probably built by one BS) tee hee, hadda go into McMurdo where the yanks welded it properly

I was probably in public school when that boat was built. I am skeptical of Lewis's claim that the cabin was bent in, as he never showed a photo of that side of the boat , nor did he mention broken ports, which would have unavoidably broke, had his story been true.
If I had had anything to do with the Ice Bird , she would have had a transom hung rudder on a large skeg, about 8 ft further aft of where it was , with trim tab ,inside steering and a wheelhouse. For that trip she would have had drop in daggerboards angled outward on either side of the rudder, and a fully insulated hull with a good heat source. The trip would have been light years easier.
Brent