US Yachts 21, anyone know this boat?

Repair thread

Hi folks,
Basically, I just want to make sure I'm throwing my questions in the right thread...Should I move to "boat building" below? I've got some lengthy questions regarding dagger repair. I will photo document the whole process along with my questions. After the initial wave of pictures, perhaps the best advice will to be "find a professional"...

I don't have a lot of glass work under my belt, but I can make magic with wood (boneswoodworks.com) having been custom timber-framing homes for 15 years. I'm teaching Art now but still caress wood in the summer. I understand the nuances of wood; glass work has it's own systems, but the precision/meticulous-ness is the same (?).

So as the Clash put..."should I stay or should I go" (to new repair thread)

and as always, thanks for the help and the endless hours of armchair knowledge acquisition

 

Repair or not

Usually, once you get it apart/open, it is pretty obvious which way to go. Most times, if the core is wet/damaged it is best to start over. If only "some" of the skin is damaged, it might be possible to repair. Cutting into it will usually reveal the problems.
Since you are used to working with wood and have the tools, building a new board that size might be easier than trying repair the old one, and probably faster. Glassing it is not hard, just messy.
B

 

Bigfork, If a moderator thinks the thread would be better situated in a different category, they will say so and then move it. No big deal.

 

Daggar Sleeve

Howdy forum folks!
I'm going to break my questions down into bit size, manageable bits. It bothers me to see these issues, but a 3000$ boat is bound to have something amiss. As I've said before, the sails are glowing and snappy and the hull is a 9.5 of 10. It's turtle-ing, in a past life, now brings about the fiasco of the ill fitting dagger.
So...Dagger Sleeve:
The sleeve itself is factory, glossy, and without any visible damage. That said the "skids" seem tired. If you look at the pictures, you can see a bounce in the black skid as the light plays off it. It's hard to explain, but both fore and aft skids bow to the inside between some of the screw. A couple of the screws on each side were spun...only about 3/4" long and going through a 7/16 skid doesn't leave very much purchase. The screws are all flathead tapered head philips faced (allowing counter sink below skid grade)....with the exception of one on the aft side. It is obviously not the right screw as it is a domed head of some sort that matches an unfortunate dado on the back of the dagger (can just see in 3rd pic, 3rd screw down). As if part of the ill fitting dagger is the fact that it hangs up in this proud screw! The aft edge of the dagger has a groove in the very top of the flange from dragging past the proud screw. I'll post pictures of the dagger later but it has a constant shape aside from the flange on the top. When the dagger is down, a pin goes through the sleeve from inside the cabin, locking it in place. The dagger sleeve side profile is actually two staged: one width to allow the flanged bit to descend to proper depth...say the top 2/3rds of sleeve. When the pin is in, the flanged bit of the dagger is actually not resting on the internal step but hovering a couple of inches above, the load being on the pin itself, not the internal ledger. The flanged bit must just be a safety measure in case the board is dropped; it won't go all the way out the bottom. The lower 1/3 of the sleeve is the mated fit of the dagger's cross-section allowing for the tight fit and support as it exits underneath. I think the internal step of the sleeve is a problematic spot for the dagger...more on this later...

The screw on the aft side that is visibly proud is also horribly defaced...a Canadian round drive. I can't get anything to grab. In fact, there are several screws on each side I can't remove. I can just barely get a drill and my big mitts down the sleeve to address the issue. One screw defaced and the others just spin.
Initial Sleeve Questions:
1. Is the solution to use some sort of tapping kit with the screws and extract them the hard way?
2. Can I just remove them and simply use a longer stainless screw that goes deeper, getting more "bite", thus sucking the bouncing bows out of the skid?
3. Should I try to get all the screws out (tapping nonsense) and replace the skids altogether?
4. If yes to #3, any ideas on where to source skid material? Is there a direct replacement or something out there that must be milled to size? Would I need to layout the holes in the new skids to match the old layout or...fill old sleeve holes (knowing some are "spun" and drill for new layout?)

I fully realize the laboriousness of the coming dick-a-round. I don't care how long it takes...I've already swallowed the idea of the boat not going out this summer. In fact, it is happily covered, not in the way, and content to sit out however long this takes. I dream of the dagger sliding up and down with ease and purpose...like it once did. For good function, I will trade a couple of years of fix if that's what it takes. It's not depreciating in a dry garage...(another life factor in this scenario is I'm due to have my first child yesterday. Lots of free time coming I'd love to take it out on the cabin cruiser when it's 2!)

Once I get some feed back, I'll post some pics of the dagger.... A whole nother can of worms, certainly more worms than the dagger sleeve.

Thanks a million folks!
bigfork.

 

How does the keel feed into those tracks? Maybe you can post some images of the keel and it's hardware.

 

Canracer,
Some dagger pics...I realize there is a lot of dagger work to be done as well (ignore the ground and glassed bit in the lower middle, among other things...if you can. I'd like to fiddle with that later). I imagine that the dagger doesn't touch the upper 2/3rds of the sleeve, aside from the top flange which centers the upper section by riding on the fore and aft skids. Once the dagger is in deep enough, reaching the lower tight 1/3 of the sleeve (which it never really exits unless being fully removed), it is constantly held by two forces, the lower 1/3 of the sleeve and the top flange which rides the skids in the upper 2/3rds of the sleeve. When retracted fully, there is still 10" showing through the bottom so during normal use (up to trailer and down to sail) the bottom never leaves the lower snug 1/3 while the top flange rides the skids...
In the pic of the dagger in but up, you can tell the hole is over sized (the dimension of the top 2/3rds of the sleeve), allowing the flange to descend.

Hope this makes sense...

 

It looks like the dagger rides along those rails using only that one little "car" at the top of the leading edge. Wow, is that right?

You might have some missing pieces (cars.)

 

At least, I'd expect to see a car on the trailing edge too.

 

By "car" you must mean some sort of wheel/bearing (fore and aft) that guides the flange down the skids...? As visible in the pictures, the flange has seen some dings and previous owner grinding attempts. The aft edge of the flange (trailing edge) shows a notch where it has had to fight over the mismatch proud screw in the sleeve's skid.

Some sort of bearing or car seems logical, but I don't think there ever has been one there. As far a I know, the flange's fit must be tight enough to offer the guidance needed...too much guidance as the leading corner has been ground back in a past "fix".

 

A car rides on a rail, just like a train's car travels along the train tracks.

Looking at your picture, I thought I saw a small piece of hardware on the leading edge about 11 inches down from that top flange (lip.) See what I'm describing? Maybe it's a piece of something on the floor.

 

Here is what I think I see.

 

indeed errant floor debris. No cars. Both the leading edge and trailing edge are straight shots aside from the flange.

Silly question, should the out dagger be sitting in a scribed form in two or more places or is it ok to live on donnage on the ground as pic shows? Funny, I can pick up the top end solo, but two grown men can just barely budge the bottom...That things got some lead in it!
thanks for the advice canracer! What do you think about the aforementioned sleeve skids? Do I try and tap stripped screws/remove them?

bigfork

 

It might be brutal, but possibly the best way to get the skid rail screws out is lever the skids with a 'jemmy' or crowbar. Even if it destroys the skids. It will either remove the screws, or pull the heads through the skids - better access to screw shaft for removal. The screw holes can then be repaired and reused or new spots used and good high quality fasteners used.

I see you have discovered how awkward moving a ballasted daggerboard is...

It won't come to any harm sitting on it's side, or if it does the layup is too light for sailing anyway. If you look how some other craft, admittedly much lighter, line their cases, you might see otherways to eliminate play. The 49'er uses velcro and some weighted daggerboard craft, carpet. I would not be surprised to see short astro turf being used. One consideration is sand and small stones along with weed. If it can get in there, it will, and it's best to let it get out as well. Worth considering the front edge (of board) condition is pretty important for decent performance so damage on it should be minimised.
The skids you have should be either acetal or nylon, both are self lube polymers to a reasonable degree. They (above plastics) should also be available in section form from good plastic stockholders. Possible to machine on woodworking tools with non ferrous blade (saw) and drill and rout. You will get a small ammount of 'spring back' so be aware of that ie drilled holes in deep material will in fact be slightly tapered.

 

I see that large wear spot on the side of the dagger and I'm very surprised that there is not some corresponding damage on the inside of the trunk.

If you can see an obvious problem with the skid, and the damage it caused to the foil, then you have to fix that spot on the skid. It's probably not important to replace the whole thing.

I might be tempted to remove that bad fastener from the inside of the boat. Yep, drill it out from the pointy end. What does the inside of that trunk look like?

It might be easy enough to cut a 1/2 inch piece of plywood to the same for and aft size as the foil and try moving it past the skids. Know what I mean? Try to confirm that the section of rail that looks bad, really is causing the trouble.

 

Ideas

I like the idea of the trial piece of ply, and take careful measurements of the board to determine where it is really sticking. The rails are better than many boats have, but I wonder if the rear of the board is somehow wedging between the aft rail and the trunk. The worn area at the lower back of the board looks strange. I sort of wonder if the rear rail is even necessary- a contact pad right at the bottom of the trunk might be all that is needed. All the weight is on the front of the board when it is sliding up and down, or at least it should be.
As I remember, (but I am old ), those were built with about 200 lbs (or more, latter) of ballast low down in the board, but it might not have been solid lead. US yachts mostly used cast iron in their regular keels, and board boats from that time often used steel or lead shot mixed with resin to pour in the hollow board. The boards would then swell a bit down low and cause all sorts of problems. I remember having to grind down several on other brands of boats.
B