Unlimited C Class Sailboat Racing Rule (UCCSRR?)

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by bistros

1. Here is some help to understand the concepts of "de facto" and "de jure". There is no "de jure" rule in place as recognized by the IYRU, but there is a "de facto" acceptance by all the players that matter on the field all ready. Basically since Fredo and Steve are willing to play, there is no need for further complication.

2. Since the two contenders in the class are already in consensus with Doug's proposed contest, this is completely redundant.

--
Bill

--------------------------

Originally Posted by Paul B

The fact remains:

The two highest performance closed course boats that qualify in the IYRU C Class have invited you (or anyone) to put together a boat that will fit the IYRU definition of C Class and meet them on the water.

They have no stipulation on sailplan, number of hulls, weight, foils, multiple foils, beam, etc. Build the better mousetrap and come beat up on them. Everyone learns something, win or lose.

You have no ability to do this, so instead you ramble on and on and on and on and on and on about nothing in these internet forums.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Unfortunately, IYRU no longer exists. No rule exists with the parameters proposed in post#1. Devising a modern version of a rule similar to but more open than the C Class Cat rule is the purpose of this thread.

-------------------
The C-Class community has now moved away from the ICCT and the Sea Cliff Yacht Club, due to disagreements on the format of the Little America’s Cup. In addition, due to the very small number of boats exhisting today, the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) has decided to drop the C-Class. So officially it cannot be called an “international” class anymore although the nature of the event and the teams involved makes it a real international event.

For these reasons, in 2004 there was no ruling body to validate whether a design was a C-class or not or to provide umpiring. Despite this, the teams took part in the event in an unprecedented gentlemanly sportsmanship, with boats based on mutually agreed trust.

Now looking toward the future, the C-class community has formed its own governing body, the International C-Class Catamaran Association (ICCA), lead by Steve Clark (president) and Duncan MacLane, who both made an outstanding contribution to preparing the 2004 LAC. A new trophy has also been put together, listing all the former winners of the cup. This may have the advantage that the people most involved in the class will control their own destiny while all united under the same banner of the ICCA.
The International C-Class Catamaran Championship, or ICCCC or I4C has taken over from the International Catamaran Challenge Trophy for C Class catamaran[1] match racing of highly innovative catamarans, predominantly with a wing rig instead of a conventional sail plan.

The prior racing scheme was entitled the "Little Americas Cup", and the name is still used[2], admittedly with the prefix "new".

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

--------------------------


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Unfortunately, IYRU no longer exists. No rule exists with the parameters proposed in post#1. Devising a modern version of a rule similar to but more open than the C Class Cat rule is the purpose of this thread.

-------------------
For those that don't know:

The C-Class community has now moved away from the ICCT and the Sea Cliff Yacht Club, due to disagreements on the format of the Little America’s Cup. In addition, due to the very small number of boats exhisting today, the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) has decided to drop the C-Class. So officially it cannot be called an “international” class anymore although the nature of the event and the teams involved makes it a real international event.

For these reasons, in 2004 there was no ruling body to validate whether a design was a C-class or not or to provide umpiring. Despite this, the teams took part in the event in an unprecedented gentlemanly sportsmanship, with boats based on mutually agreed trust.

Now looking toward the future, the C-class community has formed its own governing body, the International C-Class Catamaran Association (ICCA), lead by Steve Clark (president) and Duncan MacLane, who both made an outstanding contribution to preparing the 2004 LAC. A new trophy has also been put together, listing all the former winners of the cup. This may have the advantage that the people most involved in the class will control their own destiny while all united under the same banner of the ICCA.
The International C-Class Catamaran Championship, or ICCCC or I4C has taken over from the International Catamaran Challenge Trophy for C Class catamaran[1] match racing of highly innovative catamarans, predominantly with a wing rig instead of a conventional sail plan.

The prior racing scheme was entitled the "Little Americas Cup", and the name is still used[2], admittedly with the prefix "new".

The IYRU still exists, simply under a different name. We old guys tend to use the old names of things.

C Class is still defined the same way as ever. Just because the C Class Catamarans were dropped for one trophy due to lack of interest did not change the definition of what C Class means.

But it doesn't matter because no one is interested in your new definition or class, and we all know you'll never put a boat in the water and challenge the C Class cats.

[Doug Lord]

Proposed Rule:

This is a basic rule for racing sailboats 25' long with 300 sq' of sail area and a maximum beam of 34'. The rule would not limit participants to any type of sailboat-multihulls and monohulls could compete. Foils would be legal as would be anything not specifically restricted below. The rule idea is inspired by a discussion in the Moth on Foils thread and by the International C Class Catamaran Rule. My interest is that I'm convinced that a C Class catamaran is no longer the fastest type of sailboat POSSIBLE 25' long.
The beam restriction is high so as not to limit the type of boat that might compete and is based on the overall B/L ratio of Hydroptere. My gut feeling is that the winning boat to this Rule will be considerably narrower. The course sailing requirement is to make sure that this Unlimited("OPEN") C Class Rule does not evolve to a straight line, speed racing, one tack fits all, boat type.

--LOA 25'
--Beam 34'(max) or 1.36 times length
--Weight unrestricted
--SA 300 sq.ft.
--crew 2
--must be raced on a course( specific-like windward leeward or triangle windward leeward)
--minimum wind speed for a regatta-5 knots
--maximum wind speed-25 knots
--open to multihulls, monohulls, foilers, etc.
-------------------------------
Comments welcome

[Paul B]

Proposed Rule for Open C Class Racing:

This is a basic rule for racing sailboats with 300 ft^2 of sail area (including spars).

The rule does not limit participants to any type of sailboat - multihulls, foilers, boards, and monohulls may compete.

--LOA: Unlimited
--Beam: Unlimited
--Weight: Unlimited
--SA: 300 ft^2 (includes spars)
Note: All 300 ft^2 must be flown at all times while racing.
--Crew: Unlimited


Championship Regattas:

• Races shall take place on alternating Triangle and Windward-Leeward laps, with the weather mark set approximately 1 mile from the start.
  
• The length of each race (number of laps) shall be based on the prevailing conditions to allow the lead boats to finish in approximately one hour.
  
• minimum wind speed to start a race-3 knots
  
• maximum wind speed to start a race-20 knots

[Gary Baigent]

Paul, I like the only limitation being 300 sq.ft. - that's the sort of box? rule that should appeal and get peoples' interest - think of the disparate collection of (always interesting, humorous?) boats that would appear. But you're not being facetious by any chance, are you mate? I know how you love those old, tight, IOR rule designs.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Gary Baigent

Paul, I like the only limitation being 300 sq.ft. - that's the sort of box? rule that should appeal and get peoples' interest - think of the disparate collection of (always interesting, humorous?) boats that would appear. But you're not being facetious by any chance, are you mate? I know how you love those old, tight, IOR rule designs.

Not being facetious at all. I like all sorts of boats.

I'm simply putting down the requirements for a C Class as it has always been known.

I put in the note for using the sailplan so no one would enter a formula board, measure in a big rig, then sail with a normal (small enough to handle) board rig.

It could also make for some pretty exciting times at the upper end of the limit for those whose designs are aimed at the lighter conditions.

I'll wager no more people will be interested in this rule than in the more arbitrarily restricted rule posted above.

I don't think the well established C Class Catamarans have any more than 3 or 4 teams playing that game, where they know what they have to beat. Even at that, it is a once every few years regatta sort of thing. For about 10 years they had no teams playing.

So investing your US$1MM in a new game seems a bit iffy, seeing as how you might be a lap behind some other concept on day one.

[peterraymond]

I hesitate to post here, since the last post was almost a day ago and letting this thread die would be the kindest act, but I had another idea and well, I couldn't resist.

There is a class today where:
- There has been a history of innovation including a huge step forward in the last several years
- Progress now seems to be back to refinement and optimization
- The class uses the the most sophisticated materials
- And the most sophisticated construction techniques
- There is a huge history of innovation
- This desire has been stopped in some areas by the restrictive rules
- The individual inventors are being pushed out by professionally built boats
- An entire new state of the art boat can be duplicated for less than $30,000 or so.

Of course I'm talking about the Moth class. The current formula for success seems to be set, but the foilers are so fast that the ban on catamarans and the interpretation that eliminates surface piercing foils seems superfluous. Maybe ditto the limitation on length. As a matter of fact, I think I would keep only the sail restrictions.

We have a great solution out there, but lets see if there is a better one, that someone has thought of, but isn't legal today.

Keeping the same sail restrictions means that unless you are sailing in a gale, you only need so much righting moment. And it would stop the - how tall can you go- wars that you see in A and C cat classes. Moth sail restrictions would also limit how much can be done just by making the racks wider. Wider just wouldn't buy you that much, it increase weight and besides, a Moth could be reversibly modified to whatever turns out to be best. While a new mast and sail may not be that big a deal, being able to drop a Moth rig into a competitor still lowers the cost of entry.

All we need now is a class name. Open Moth is obvious and may be best, but seems to lack imagination. A prettier Moth is a Butterfly, but that name is taken. In Moth season here the Moths are attracted to lights at night and you can see the swallows swooping around the lights feasting on the Moths, but that names taken too I think.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by peterraymond

All we need now is a class name. Open Moth is obvious and may be best, but seems to lack imagination. A prettier Moth is a Butterfly, but that name is taken. In Moth season here the Moths are attracted to lights at night and you can see the swallows swooping around the lights feasting on the Moths, but that names taken too I think.

Why not call it the Zapper class?

Bug Zappers kill moths.

[peterraymond]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Why not call it the Zapper class?

Bug Zappers kill moths.

Sounds good to me. A Z on the sail would work.

[MalSmith]

Sail area restricted classes already exist in the speed sailing arena:

10 sq m (up to and including 10 sq m)
A Class (from 10 sq m up to and including 150 sq ft (13.93 sq m))
B Class (from 150 sq ft up to and including 235 sq ft (21.84 sq m))
C Class (from 235 sq ft up to and including 300 sq ft (27.88 sq m))
D Class (over 300 sq ft)

All you have to do is specify a triangular course.

[peterraymond]

A slightly tweaked definition of insanity is to post the same thing over and over and expect different results. I'll add a definition of abuse, which is to post the same thing over and over with no expectation of change.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_first_...ferent_results

What I find ironic is that what "someone" does most effectively is irritate certain people without even trying. I would think it would be embarrassing to have a button that was so easy to push.

Or is it ironic that advocacy and enthusiastic exaggeration are crimes, but insults are not?

Or that attempts to "improve" the forum are instead damaging it?

I was recently pleased to see unusually useful content from "a person" that was a specific, supported trashing of the MX Ray. Well, now I'm exaggerating. It was specific and supported, but the comments actually sounded pretty balanced - sorry, I was on a roll and couldn't stop myself.

My candidate for most frustrating thread ever is one over on SA about adding foils to a 49er. There was such an outpouring of animosity it was almost impossible to read, but mixed in was some great content from very qualified people. I simultaneously felt like I couldn't read it and had to read it. I took several breaks, but eventually made it to the end and learned from it.

I won't name names, because I know I'll forget someone, but there are a number of people who are universally respected and who contribute with every posting. These people are experienced, helpful and knowledgeable. Not many can contribute on that level, but trying to emulate at least the type and tenor of their posts seems like a good goal.

Oh well, I should really give up on this subject. It's obviously off-topic and this message is nothing new. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, but I'm sure I will. It will probably encourage exactly what I'm trying to discourage and that will show that I meet the definition of insanity that I used to start this post. Or, does the fact that I don't expect anything to change mean that this post fits my definition of abuse?

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Proposed Rule:

This is a basic rule for racing sailboats 25' long with 300 sq' of sail area and a maximum beam of 34'. The rule would not limit participants to any type of sailboat-multihulls and monohulls could compete. Foils would be legal as would be anything not specifically restricted below. The rule idea is inspired by a discussion in the Moth on Foils thread and by the International C Class Catamaran Rule. My interest is that I'm convinced that a C Class catamaran is no longer the fastest type of sailboat POSSIBLE 25' long.
The beam restriction is high so as not to limit the type of boat that might compete and is based on the overall B/L ratio of Hydroptere. My gut feeling is that the winning boat to this Rule will be considerably narrower. The course sailing requirement is to make sure that this Unlimited("OPEN") C Class Rule does not evolve to a straight line, speed racing, one tack fits all, boat type.

--LOA 25'
--Beam 34'(max) or 1.36 times length
--Weight unrestricted
--SA 300 sq.ft.
--crew 2
--must be raced on a course( specific-like windward leeward or triangle windward leeward)
--minimum wind speed for a regatta-5 knots
--maximum wind speed-25 knots
--open to multihulls, monohulls, foilers, etc.
-------------------------------
Comments welcome

==================================
CLASS RULE Development:

I think that the purposes of the rule should be to provide a method to test sailing technology in a rigorous, somewhat controlled manner. I think that has been done to a large extent under the C Class catamaran rule with its limitations on length and sail area and its requirement for course sailing.
But technology has come a long way since that rule was invented and a great contribution could be made by devising a modern version of a rule similar to the C Class Cat rule with modifications that reflect the latest sailing technology-like a tri beating a cat in the Americas Cup and a monohull routinely beating beachcats-things that couldn't even be conceived of at the time the original catamaran rule was written.
A rule like this MUST allow existing C Class cats to compete because their knowledge base can help develop boats using the newest technology. The idea is not to interfere with the C Class Cat rule and championship in any way but to have a group of people, acting in the interests of furthering sailing technology, develop a modern rule that keeps some of the essential elements of the C Class Cat rule while opening it up to the newest technologies capable of racing at this level.
Allowing wide trimarans and monohulls to sail at a high level under a rule that permits them to be competitive with C Class Cats(and vice versa) is a noble cause that could leave a great legacy of technology development and spectacular sailing. It is something a few good people could accomplish by working together and it would benefit each and every one of us over time.

CLASS RULE-
Co-operative Learning And Sailing System Rule