U.S. Moth Action (and the world is WELCOME!)

[Stephen Ditmore]

The newsletter for the U.S. "Modern Moth" class is now posted at
http://www.mothboat.com/USMMCA/newsletters.htm

An article on foiler Moths can be found at
http://www.moth.it/Magazine_dinghy.htm

Here in the U.S. we also have a "Classic Moth" class, which does not permit racks and has a more limited sail area. The average age of Moth sailors in the U.S. is high. Any ideas how we can get more college age sailors involved in Moths?

Stephen,foiling will bring in young people but I think if buoyancy pods were legal (or just used to help people start) and if foil systems were made so they could be retracted instead of having to be inserted thru the bottom of the boat every time that it would be far easier to sail skinny foiler Moths. Or maybe design a more stable Moth that would be slower than the skinnies but easier to sail to act as a foiler trainer. I'd get involved except that I'm too heavy to be competitive in the Moth class(or to test a Moth design!).
I'm convinced that foils are the future (and the present ) in the Moth class but, Stephen, are the American Moth sailors you know of committed to going to foils or is it a wait and see type thing? Do people think that going with spinnakers is the way to go and not foils?

[Stephen Ditmore]

I suspect we're doing a higher percentage of our sailing in light winds. That's one factor. The average age being high is another. I think we need those first few foilers on the starting line, and then we'll see. I'm hopeful there'll be at least one at Brigantine in June.

Most U.S. Moth sailors are building their own boats rather than buying, which may be another factor. People who buy tend to sail one-design around here.

I personally want to race longer, point-to-point, like it's a mini-transat, but mini-er. For that reason I'm wanting to keep my classic moth relatively simple and seaworthy.

[the_sphincter]

racks and foils (or at least racks) are the way to get new kids in the class. What is the weight range for them? If there was a class in my area I'd build one.

[mattotoole]

I don't think too many younger sailors have the time, and money, to be involved in development classes.

As exciting as these boats are, their appeal is probably limited -- to a subset of athletic speed freaks, who also happen to be obsessive boat-tweakers. With that in mind, if you want to promote the class, bring a couple of demo boats to an I14 regatta, etc., where you're likely to find such folk.

[casavecchia]

Matt,
I think you are too pessimistic.
It could be a father and son project, for instance.
One year ago there were no Moths in Italy, now we have nine boats and some more to come.
Somebody here is thinking to start a production of carbon Moths.
Hydrofoiling is very appealing indeed.
Marco

[Steve Clark]

The only problem with the moth class is that the first step is pretty big. Kids might have to go from a Laser Radial or Sunfish ( which are most of 48" wide on the waterline and weight over 150 lbs fully rigged to a boat with a 12" waterline beam and an all in weight of 70 pounds.
Everthing else about the boats is cool, they are easy to build, super quick and if done at home, pretty cheap.
What is probably needed is a "moth track"
Step 1 Classic Moths
Step 2 Middle Moths, About like a Magnum 5 with full battened sail wings etc but a fairly reasonable 24" waterline beam
Step 3 Skiff Moth ( Axeman, Skippys and Hungry Tigers)
Step 4 Foilers.
People would progress like through the martial arts....
"Careful now, he's a Class 4 Mothie!"
It would be very cool if people had the energy and passion to make it happen.
SHC

[gggGuest]

By what I hear from Moth sailors the step 2s are in someways more difficult to sail than the step 3s because a narrow T foils boat is stable longitudinally and sufficiently narrow that the hull doesn't steer the boat. And if the step 3 has a plastic mast and the step 2 a tin one...

The trainer idea is great, I think, but maybe it could be the same boat to save money: effective buoyancy pods and foils to start with but maybe "low altitude" foils initialy to reduce the severity of any crashes or maybe just "foil assist"foils-without an altitude control system but big enough to lift half the boat weight or so. Or maybe the same thing on a wider hull. Assuming that learning to competently handle foils is the goal then I think a system of breaking(no pun intended) people into the handling associated with foils right from the start is a good idea. Startup "foil assist" sets could be sold to the next beginner as the student progresses.
And there is one real important thing: nothing says a foiler has to have a skinny hull! Ian Ward has made many foiler experiments on his Moth Scow. The difference might be a slightly higher takeoff wind but once on foils it's all the same.The most difficult part of the learning curve from what I've been able to glean from those that have done it is learning to sail the skinny hull with no foils. So forget that and put either partial lift foils to begin with or full flying foils on a wider hull. Hell that could be a class itself -sort of a sub class within the Moth class. And for gods sake make the foils retractable so the boat can be sailed off a beach !
Just some different ideas that might be worth thinking about...

[casavecchia]

http://www.moth.asn.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=273
There is a discussion here on this subject.
I think it's better to stay between the class rules .
The Moth class rules permitted the biggest jump forward made in all sailing classes ever.
Marco.

[Steve Clark]

Maybe there are too may steps.
My thought was that there should be a rugged simple Moth that has racks, and planes around a lot. Making it "slightly " heavier and thus more robust means the kids won't wreck it all the time. Figure It still has a T foil rudder, still has racks, still has a full battened main and may be weighs 60 pounds instead of 45. Could be flat packed or distributed as a DXF file for local cutting.
I played with one that was more or less 30" wide for build/ sail project that never got of the ground.
SHC

[mattotoole]

The trainer idea may seem appealing to us middle aged folks. But as one who used to be one of those athletic kids, I think the transition is probably easier than it seems to us now. As Marco said, just stay within the class rules. They'll figure it out quickly, if they figure it out at all. But as Doug suggested, "training wheels" could be handy for the first few runs. Without them, most of us would probably spend more time swimming than sailing!

I'd love to have a go someday myself, or at least a good look. I'll be checking the class websites for events in the Carolinas this spring.

Matt, the trainer doesn't have to be aimed at young kids ; it could be aimed at kids of any age.
The wider hull would be within the class rules as would "foil assist" foils. I do think any "trainer" should be equipped with foils-- whether "foil assist" or not is open to question. But anyway you look at it it would still be a Moth.....
edit---Even though I think buoyancy pods are an excellent idea they are pretty much against the rules esp. if they look like a "hull"-the UK Moth site some views posted on the subject.

[Stephen Ditmore]

Designs raced as Classic Moths can be converted to Moderns with the addition of a taller mast & racks (or if the Classic already has a tall stiff mast and a high boom you might get away with just moving the gooseneck).

While the most successful Classic Moth design is the Mistral (and variations), which has a narrow waterline, some wider waterline boats are competitive. The Europe Class dinghy is, and Europes are available now that the decision has been made to drop them from the next Olympics. "Tweezer D," designed by competitor Rod Mitchner, is fast. Florida designers O.H. Rodgers and Paul Lindenberg have both designed Classic Moths, and Bob Ames has designed a Modern.

In 1967s the king of Siam/Thailand designed a Moth called a "Super Mod" that might still be competitive as a classic, and perhaps the hull shape could be the basis of a modern. See http://kanchanapisek.or.th/kp8/art/hand_crafted_en.htm, 5th paragraph.

If one were to shorten an MX-Ray to the 11' maximum it'd make a good Moth, classic or modern (to be legal as a classic any hollow of more than 1" would have to be taken out of the sections aft of the daggarboard).

I consider the boat I'm building a prototype, but in a couple of years I hope to be selling plans. I'm confident my boat will be both competitive and well behaved. Time will tell if it'll be on a par with Mitchner's "Tweezer D" and the others I've mentioned.

Stephen, is anybody in the northeast Moth community sailing a skinny"skiff" Moth? Are they legal in the US "Modern" segment of the class?