TP52s

[the_sphincter]

Originally Posted by RHough

Hmmm ...

When did the leeward boat acquire right of way?

If she acquired ROW from astern and the windward boat could not keep clear the leeward boat is at fault under sec B rule15.

The windward boat in the photo has the helm hard over in an attempt to keep clear of the boat to leeward. The fact that she was not able to keep clear with her helm hard over is evidence that the leeward boat failed to give the windward boat room to keep clear.

In the leeward's boat account, the windward boat did not tack into that position, both boats were on starboard.

There is no way that the windward boat could end up in that position from clear astern, so I have to assume that she was clear ahead when the leeward boat established overlap and acquired ROW.

Protest to the windward boat, leeward failed to give room to keep clear.

What idiot would screw up their start by sailing under a boat making leeway?

Frank had his board up

[Jim Hauser]

I can't believe you are trying to analyze Migghies accident based on one photo. Cripe, he's a walking disaster on the course, and unless you have seen him sail you can't even begin to discuss in a logical manner how he got in that situation.

[Shife]

Originally Posted by 101

Looks like our work here is done. Frank is posting at SA again. All is right with the world.

That is not Frank posting at SA. Just one of the many having a laugh at Spaghetto's expense.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Jim Hauser

I can't believe you are trying to analyze Migghies accident based on one photo. Cripe, he's a walking disaster on the course, and unless you have seen him sail you can't even begin to discuss in a logical manner how he got in that situation.

Since I have no idea who Frank is (other than what I've read here). I read the account of the leeward boat and looked at the photo evidence. Not having a bone to pick with Frank, I made a protest committee ruling on the information at hand.

Now, given what seems to be common opinion about the sailing ability of Mac26's and seeing one ahead to windward. What do you do?

A. Get an overlap to leeward of a boat than is slower and does not point as high, knowing that you will have to sail through her wind shadow and give her room to keep clear.

B. Head up, let the Mac26 slide by, then start your race in clear air.

C. Know that the Mac26 is Frank and assume it is a vessel "not under command" and give it room.

D. Get the overlap from leeward to mess with Frank and then whine on forum that he cannot post on that he fouled you.

Does one choice make more sense? Does one look like unsportsmanlike conduct?

Based on what I read and the photo, I'd protest the leeward boat and win.

[TP 52 Defender]

Leeward boat wins on this one under 11 and Frank is out as long as the right of way boat gave Frank the ablity to keep clear.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

Leeward boat wins on this one under 11 and Frank is out as long as the right of way boat gave Frank the ablity to keep clear.

What does the helm hard over tell you? I tells me that windward was trying as hard as she could to keep clear.

If the leeward boat had said, "The Mac26 tacked on to starboard and made contact with our weather side", the Mac would be at fault under rule 13. The leeward boat made no such statement.

We really don't know if rule 11 or rule 15 applies, because we don't know which boat was clear ahead prior to the overlap and we don't know how far away they were from each other when the overlap started.

Just trying to look at the situation without bias.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

Leeward boat wins on this one under 11 and Frank is out as long as the right of way boat gave Frank the ablity to keep clear.

The rule that a boat must give two boat widths came into play. I discussed that with Mike briefly. However, there really was no wind. I was just pleased to get over the starting line. To head up towards the committee boat placed Mighty Magnetto (where did the dinghy guy get that one) in conflict with Stephen who would have to barge Kelly or was barging Kelly because of me into the commitee boat. I knew what Mike was up to. It was a great manuver. However, I as the boat in the squeeze chose to create more sea room.

Mike was reluctant to put out a flag but there was some consideration being given by me to flagging Stephen who I had overlapped earlier but wasnt certain Stephen was aware of because he was close. Anyway I had pissed Stephen off somehow during a Board meeting and decided against further irritation.

There is more. Mike and I decided that we could head up towards the commitee boat after a bit of discussion. He expected Murrelet to fall back owing to being overly pinched and I expected Fourth to pass. But both our boats lost ground essentially stopping. The pinch was overly aggressive. But seriously there was so little wind. I put out a fender, Mike pushed off with his feet and the only thing left was to figure out how to make the two circles without creating additional proplems.

FYI, to point, the Mac26x must be on a 10 to 15 heel. Because Fourth was to close we had to come off that heel to avoid touching the rigging. The two boat width rule is important for our kind of craft. By Design.

Murrelet braked, eventually there was enough room to manuver and surprisingly there was enough wind to do the turns and stay in the race. But at the point I realized by helm control that there was sailing backwards happening the process of deciding we were all in a DNF situation began.

We were unballasted and making .5 MPH when we gave up. It was a good chess game regardless. The last day for our old Genoa. Tonight is the pot luck. See some of you all there.

Frank L. Mighetto

[TP 52 Defender]

What does overlap have to do with this situation - I thought this was prestart / start. It does not look like the leeward boat is luffing simply sailing close hauled so overlap is not an issue. Simply RRS 11. If the boat to weather cannot control it's leeway (helm hard over etc) it is not the problem of the right of way boat - he is still allowed to expect that the give way boat will keep clear (untill 14 comes into play). No bias simply rules...

Frank “The rule that a boat must give two boat widths came into play”
- Please show me this rule.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by mighetto

The rule that a boat must give two boat widths came into play.

<snip>

The two boat width rule is important for our kind of craft. By Design.

Two boat width? What rule is that?

My RRS is 2001-2004, I don't have 2005-2008 yet.

I don't remember a two beam rule.

Rule 17.1 contains a two boat length rule that constrains the actions of the leeward boat while she is within two of her boat lengths from the windward boat, no mention of beam.

[TP 52 Defender]

From the other party:

"Hi gang, yesterdays Hope Island race was a drifter, delayed start, wind puffs clocking around like the second hand on a stop watch.
First fleet still on the line as the scond fleet start gun went off, a group of boats near the RC boat rafted together for a BBQ and red flags hangin' like dirty laundry on the back yard cloths line.
Frank was windward of us by 50yrds, both his and our boat were on starboard tack.
I watched the BBQ raft drift clear of the committee boat and open a large hole at the windward end of the line. I told the helmsperson of the boat I was on, to head right for the bow of the RC boat, perfect, clear course that would put us in clear air and windward of the fleet, us being downwind boat could now close the door on our fleet.
It was unbelievable how it was workin' for us, except for one boat,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
this perticulare vessel seemed to be movin' sideways instead of forward???????????
A Mac 26 goin' 15ft sideways to every 10ft forward, now on our windward rail, I hailed for him to keep clear, and we gave him plenty of room, but funny thing, the more he pointed his Mac 26 up, the the faster it went sideways towards us,,,,,,,,,,, somethin' wrong here, I thought to myself, this boat is boasted as being a very good sailin' machine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I told Frank that he too should head for the bow of the RC boat, we would give him room to clear the RC boat, he agreed, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, one small problem, he was goin' sideways instead of forward, I again hailed to keep clear, but to no avail, he forced us to sail off our course to the point where we could no longer take advantage of our good start position,
now I was slightly pissed, and his boat kept pushing our course downwind,
I hailed "Protest", He asked to see the flag, I went to the stern and set the protest flag, then hailed "Protest" again,,,,,,,,,,,,, he replied with " I'll do my turns when I get clear",,,,,,,
I thought to myself,,,,"Phuckin' ********!"
I sat down on the rail and pushed that "POS" off of our side, I was surprised how far it went when I fended him off,,,,,,,,,,,,,
once clear of him we pointed back towards our course,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
thought for awhile about the way his boat was sailin',,,,,,,,,,, then it dawned on me, the fool was sailin' to windward with his dagger board up!
phuckin' idiot!"

Coppied from SA (like posted earlier)

[RHough]

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

What does overlap have to do with this situation - I thought this was prestart / start. It does not look like the leeward boat is luffing simply sailing close hauled so overlap is not an issue. Simply RRS 11. If the boat to weather cannot control it's leeway (helm hard over etc) it is not the problem of the right of way boat - he is still allowed to expect that the give way boat will keep clear (untill 14 comes into play). No bias simply rules...

Frank “The rule that a boat must give two boat widths came into play”
- Please show me this rule.

Part 2 applies to all boats racing, intending to race, or have been racing in or near the racing area.

The only time leeward - windward (rule 11) applies is while overlapped.

Prior to and after the overlap rule 12 applies and clear astern keeps clear of clear ahead.

Rule 11 applies if windward established the overlap from clear astern, thus remaining in the keep clear position she was in when she was clear astern.

I would expect to hear from the leeward boat, "We were clear ahead and the Mac26 was overtaking us, as the ROW boat we held our course until it became clear that the overtaking boat was failing to keep clear."

If the leeward was overtaking windward, she has no ROW until she is overlapped. Windward does not have to keep clear until the overlap is established. Rule 12

Leeward acquired ROW so she is subject to rule 15 and must allow windward room to keep clear.

When leeward is so close to windward that windward's stern will swing down and hit her when windward tries to keep clear, she has failed to give the windward boat room to keep clear so she is at fault under rule 15.

The only difference between pre-start and racing is that prior to the start there is no "proper course", so rule 17 does not apply before the start.

[RHough]

Frank was windward of us by 50yrds, both his and our boat were on starboard tack.

If Frank was 50 yards to windward, Frank was clear ahead with ROW, Rule 12

head right for the bow of the RC boat, perfect, clear course that would put us in clear air and windward of the fleet, us being downwind boat could now close the door on our fleet.

How can a boat be "windward of the fleet" and the downwind boat at the same time?

this perticulare vessel seemed to be movin' sideways instead of forward???????????

Read this "The boat clear ahead was making leeway"

...now on our windward rail, I hailed for him to keep clear, and we gave him plenty of room,

bzzzzt wrong

the more he pointed his Mac 26 up, the the faster it went sideways towards us

When any sailboat is turned closer to the wind, it's stern moves to leeward.

,,,,,,,,,,, somethin' wrong here

Read, "I don't understand how boats turn, I allowed our boat to acquire ROW too close to the windward boat to allow her to keep clear"

he forced us to sail off our course to the point where we could no longer take advantage of our good start position,

Whine, "Due our tactical error, we lost our windward and downwind at the same time starting position"

then it dawned on me, the fool was sailin' to windward with his dagger board up!

So what? In 50 yards the leeward boat didn't see what angle the windward boat was sailing? They chose to put themselves in a position where the boat making leeway would force them to give much more room than a boat that was not making leeway? Who screwed up their start with a protest situation?
Who would have been better off heading up, slowing down and letting the clear ahead boat slide by before returning to her course for the favoured "windward and downwind at the same time" start position?

Who's the idiot?

[TP 52 Defender]

I think we see the situation differently - would love to see a diagram. Still want to see the 2BW rule???

[RHough]

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

I think we see the situation differently - would love to see a diagram. Still want to see the 2BW rule???

Yep, trying to find "facts" from two biased sources is the bane of protest committees!

I'm just playing devils advocate here. Giving the windward boat the benefit of any doubt.

I too would like to see a 2BW rule! LOL

I'd also like to see a diagram of a place on a starting line that would place a boat to windward and downwind of the fleet at the same time.

To me it sounds like neither boat had a clue. The names should be Amateur Hour I and Amateur Hour II.

If Frank was behind the line on stbd and 50yds to weather of the other boat, how did they end up colliding?

How could any point on a start line below Frank's position be favoured?

If the left end was favoured and Frank was 50yds to weather of the other boat, it puts him OCS prior to the start. Starting at the left end puts a boat ahead and to leeward of the fleet.

If the right end was favoured, a start there would but a boat ahead and to windward of the fleet and Frank was barging.

If Frank was 50yds abeam the other boat and overlapped, there is no way they could end up where they did.

The statement of the leeward boat cannot be supported by any diagram that I can think up. The statement certainly does not fit the photo.

I hate protest rooms, either sitting on the committee or testifying from either side. I don't know any good sailors that like protests. At the club race level when one or both parties show themselves to have wasted my time because they don't know the rules, I tend to make the experience so embarrassing for them that they never protest again. In many cases its just a skipper's ego that can't admit they made a mistake and they try to "lawyer" their way out.

In this case I'd DSQ leeward under Rule 69.1 (a) for calling another boat a "POS" and it's skipper a "phuckin' idiot" on the Internet. I'd penalize the boat 1 finish place for each race that passed without a formal apology. :evil:

[TP 52 Defender]

69.1 - really hard to use in this case (or any due to the penalties). However the internet is not the race course and those comments would be statements of oppinions and do not violate RRS 2.

I would doubt any judge would call for a 69 on this one.

Sounds like the driftathon got the better of both boats ...