TP52s

[marshmat]

I'd like to clarify a few things here.

I do not own a MacGregor, nor have I ever set foot on one. Nor do I own or have experience with a TP52. I have no personal experience with, and thus no personal opinion of, either craft. Nor do I personally know Mighetto, Teeters or any other player in this drama. I do however have a great deal of experience with, and respect for, the principles of physics which govern the operation of boats.

I am not laying any blame in the case mentioned by Shife earlier. What I see there is a photo of a capsized sailing yacht that did not appear to be under sail at the time of capsize. I would very much appreciate more information on the conditions surrounding the incident. Drunkenness alone is nowhere near sufficient to capsize a motorboat that size. Crash it into something yes, but not to flip it. The waves in the photo did not appear large enough to have a dangerous effect on a vessel that size, so I am quite curious as to what caused the capsize. Anyone with more info, please post it.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by marshmat

The waves in the photo did not appear large enough to have a dangerous effect on a vessel that size, so I am quite curious as to what caused the capsize. Anyone with more info, please post it.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

It looks like the boat had 11 people on board (rated for 6) and the ballast tanks were empty.

On the face of it, it is such a blatant case of "stupid boater" that it should not be given a second thought.

If you rolled a Jeep while 10 of your drunken buddies were standing on the roll bar would it be Jeep's fault?

[RHough]

SPECIAL SAFETY INFORMATION 26M
SPECIAL SAFETY WARNINGS:
Boats, like any other form of transportation, have inherent risks. Attentions to these warnings and instructions should help keep these risks to a minimum.

THE WATER BALLAST TANK SHOULD BE FULL WHEN EITHER POWERING OR SAILING.

IF THE BALLAST TANK IS NOT COMPLETELY FULL, THE BOAT IS NOT SELF RIGHTING. (IF YOU CHOOSE TO OPERATE THE BOAT WITH AN EMPTY TANK, SEE THE SECTION ON OPERATING THE BOAT WITHOUT WATER BALLAST.)

WHEN THE BALLAST TANK IS FULL:
- NO MORE THAN 6 PERSONS, 960 POUNDS.

WHEN THE BALLAST TANK IS EMPTY:
- NO MORE THAN 4 PERSON, OR 640 POUNDS.
- CREW WEIGHT CENTERED FROM SIDE TO SIDE.
- ALL SAILS REMOVED, ENGINE POWER ONLY.
- NO ONE ON THE CABIN TOP OR FORDECK.
- WAVES LESS THAN 1 FOOT.
-OPERATE WHERE WATER IS WARM AND
RESCUE IS LIKELY.
- NEVER OPERATE THE BOAT WITH A PARTIALLY
FILLED TANK.

If the knothead that was at the helm had a working grasp of english and could count all the way up to the fingers of one hand there would be no issue.

It is sad that two children died. But MacGregor is not at fault.

[marshmat]

So the boat was grossly overloaded and the skipper was running with no ballast in direct contravention of the builder's directives. I think that clears up who's responsible. Thanks for the article RHough.

[jam007]

Now lets see.
No serious sailor will ever buy a Mac26 nor any serious power boater. Only newbies will buy one. People who wants to go out on the water a weekend now and then and probably are without much boating experience.
If these inexperienced families/persons make the misstake of not complying with the manufacturers manual they might end up killing them self or their children since the construction is basicaly dangerous...


Something tells me that Collin Archer never had to write similar safety instructions for his vessels.

Anders M

[SailDesign]

Anders,
Yup! It's just like marketing mock-racing motorcycles with 3-digit horsepowers to kids who have never ridden a bike before. Or over-powered cars (which at least cannot fall over without severe provocation).
Such is the great wide world of marketing.
Steve

[RHough]

Originally Posted by jam007

Now lets see.
No serious sailor will ever buy a Mac26 nor any serious power boater. Only newbies will buy one. People who wants to go out on the water a weekend now and then and probably are without much boating experience.
If these inexperienced families/persons make the misstake of not complying with the manufacturers manual they might end up killing them self or their children since the construction is basicaly dangerous...


Something tells me that Collin Archer never had to write similar safety instructions for his vessels.

Anders M

Don't be silly. Because a product can be miss-used is no reason to condemn it. If you use a hair dryer while showering it makes you stupid. It doesn't make the hair dryer unsafe.

SUV's are prone to roll in conditions that sedan would not. Does that make SUV's unsafe or just different?

Newbies have to start somewhere. If a Mac 26 starts a love affair with boating, I think it is a great boat. I've been sailing for years, my ex-wife was not a sailor. When I talked about getting a boat, she wanted something to water-ski behind, I wanted a sailboat. I should have considered a Mac26. It would have been cheaper than the divorce.

I think it is sad that a product must be made idiot proof for liability reasons. I also think it sad that boaters fight tooth and nail against any form of operator testing or licensing.

[jam007]

RHough
I´m not silly. It´s like the motorcycles SailDesign mentions but with one difference, most of these motorcycles are well built and with high performance. They are targeting the inexperienced with a potentially dangerous produkt.

Agree on the idiot proofing problem. But from this horizont, Sweden, it seems to be mostly an US problem.

Anders M

[RHough]

Originally Posted by jam007

RHough
I´m not silly. It´s like the motorcycles SailDesign mentions but with one difference, most of these motorcycles are well built and with high performance. They are targeting the inexperienced with a potentially dangerous produkt.

Agree on the idiot proofing problem. But from this horizont, Sweden, it seems to be mostly an US problem.

Anders M

I should have put a smiley in there.

I agree that it is a US problem. Somewhere along the line it became expected that others should take responsibility for our safety.

I'll also have to give you the point that MacGregor marketing is aimed at novices and could be considered misleading.

My concern is that someone will decide that water ballast in itself an unsafe design. There is nothing in the concept that is inherently unsafe.

MacGregor has proved that there is a market for a trailerable, multi-function boat. That no one is trying to compete for that market seems odd to me.

[jam007]

it is!

[the_sphincter]

Well said RHough. I however would not say that mac's are in any way a raceboat (look at the deck layout), or even an offshore boat (though people do the Transpac in Wylie Wabbits I believe). In terms of safety, I think a 26' boat with a keel would be safer and more seaworthy than a Mac 26X simply due to the fact that it has a big hunk of lead deep down preventing it from capsizing.

[Shife]

Originally Posted by mighetto

You are indeed a gentleman. I am told by my MacGregor Brothers that Sailing Anarchist Posters are SAPs, this being pronounced exactly as Larry Ellison pronounces it. Shife's photo is in reference to the 2002 Drunken Boaters case that Jim Teeters went out of his way to become an expert witness for. The boat was never on trial but Teeters attempted to make that so and no one will convince me that the halt of production in the USA wasn't owing to Teeters involvment in the case. When the Director or Research for US Sailng chooses to get involved, business insurance carriers take note.

Today Teeters has been totally discredited, Taylor's expert testimony having done him in, and his pathetic letters to Seahorse International trying to justify LPS TP52 box rules being now marginalized almost completely. To say that politics isn't part of boat design is to ignore reality. The yacht clubs are full of folks like Cunningham who deal by bribe and threat and manipulate courts of law and legislative bodies for wrong doing. Just to clarify for those who still hope for Sailing Anarchy, Cunningham represented district 50 in San Diego. Even if not a member of SDYC his mode of operation is the reason, I do not live there even though my family has property there.

Frank L. Mighetto

Wow Frankie, I'm honored that the MacGregors would even care about SA'ers. Next time you see him make sure you tell Roger that I think his boat is an unsafe pile of crap. You claimed that no Mac26x had ever been rolled over. I simply posted a picture proving otherwise. "When the Director or Research for US Sailng chooses to get involved, business insurance carriers take note. " Take note of what? The fact that this isn't the first fatality linked to your favorite boat? What's amazing is that you actually think Jim Teeters suffered any for his involvement in that case. Why would he? He stated his opinion of the boat. That was it. It had nothing to do with TP52's.There is no conspiracy. You have been disproven on all of this countless times. You are the laughing stock of your club. People in the PNW actually cringe when they hear your name due to the disservice you have done to them. Retailers of MacGregors boats stutter and struggle for words when your name is mentioned because of the damage YOU have done to their reputation. Teeters continues to be heavily involved in sailing. The only thing that has been discredited is you. The simple fact that you think Sailing Anarchy is some kind of "movement" is reason enough to have you hospitalized. It's a freaking website Frank. People log in there to ******** and discuss new boats. It's not a revolution, it's capitalism fueled by advertising dollars. You are a sick man Frank. Get some help.

[D'ARTOIS]

Originally Posted by RHough

SPECIAL SAFETY INFORMATION 26M
SPECIAL SAFETY WARNINGS:

THE WATER BALLAST TANK SHOULD BE FULL WHEN EITHER POWERING OR SAILING.

IF THE BALLAST TANK IS NOT COMPLETELY FULL, THE BOAT IS NOT SELF RIGHTING. (IF YOU CHOOSE TO OPERATE THE BOAT WITH AN EMPTY TANK, SEE THE SECTION ON OPERATING THE BOAT WITHOUT WATER BALLAST.)

WHEN THE BALLAST TANK IS FULL:
- NO MORE THAN 6 PERSONS, 960 POUNDS.

WHEN THE BALLAST TANK IS EMPTY:
- NO MORE THAN 4 PERSON, OR 640 POUNDS.
- CREW WEIGHT CENTERED FROM SIDE TO SIDE.
- ALL SAILS REMOVED, ENGINE POWER ONLY.
- NO ONE ON THE CABIN TOP OR FORDECK.
- WAVES LESS THAN 1 FOOT.
-OPERATE WHERE WATER IS WARM AND
RESCUE IS LIKELY.
- NEVER OPERATE THE BOAT WITH A PARTIALLY
FILLED TANK.

It is sad that two children died. But MacGregor is not at fault.

With a safety warning like this, that boat could never be launched, at least not in Europe.

What everybody has failed to notice - I have posted this earlier - that the two children wre TRAPPED in the cabin and could not come out. WHY?

The biggest threat in the US is Legal Action - instead of the gunslingers of the 19th century the American system has found another way to spoil the lives of countrymen. Unfortunately it is probably something similar to the Etan Allan Case - the boat is a weekender fit for a few people on board but with a mast on and a too powerful outboard a real hazard.

On a good designed boat, you can be drunk as hell, but you can't capsize it.
I invite you all to try to capsize my former boat. You won't be able to do it, not even in Bft 10. ( I tried it)

Why are those warnings posted on everythin - cars, boats, machines, - you name it? Not to save people but only to avoid legal cases!

Sueing is big business! 1 Mil lawyers in US! One to every 340 people.
A bloody shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RHough]

Originally Posted by D'ARTOIS

With a safety warning like this, that boat could never be launched, at least not in Europe.

What everybody has failed to notice - I have posted this earlier - that the two children wre TRAPPED in the cabin and could not come out. WHY?

Safety warnings don't make a product unsafe. The lack of safety warning don't make a product safe.

Every aluminum mast has a warning label about not hitting overhead power-lines. Shall we condemn all conductive masts and rigging as unsafe?

That two children were trapped in the cabin is not a design fault of the Mac26. In a capsize situation people get trapped inside cabins in all sorts of designs.

My biggest gripe is that an untrained operator, miss-used the boat and rather than take responsibility for his actions blames the boat.

If he had borrowed a helicopter and crashed, would helicopters be declared unsafe?

Are El Toros unsafe because they swamp after a capsize and the daggerboard trunk is below the swamped waterline?

Is the owner of the boat in anyway responsible for not checking out the skipper to make sure he knew the limits of the boat? Would he be a fault if he lent his car to someone that cannot drive?

If you manage to kill someone and it's discovered that you had 6 people in a 2 person inflatable is Avon at fault?

There is no way that a manufacturer can prevent their products from being miss-used. Is the answer to demand products that cannot become dangerous no matter what fool uses it?

An example:
The majority of emergency room cases before noon on weekdays are cuts to the hand while splitting a bagel.

Should bagels and knives be declared unsafe?

The fault clearly lies with the human.

If I stand back and squint, I can just start to see an argument that boats (not just MacGregors) have been made so easy to operate that the risks of boating are ignored. We don't want to go down that road.

[usa2]

i think the problem here is that the boat CAN be rolled over if one forgets to fill the ballast tanks. Its like forgetting to lower a centreboard, except most boats wont roll if you forget to do that, they'll just slide around.