TP52s

[the_sphincter]

Mighetto: have you taken into account that using newton's law of universal gravitation, the acceleration due to gravity is greater as you move closer to the earths core. The result: a 10 ton boat with a 9 foot keel will have a greater righting moment than a 10 ton boat with a 3 foot keel.

[marshmat]

Originally Posted by jam007

Whats your view on orange keels to maximize the rankine-hugoniot relation and sine wave propulsion for the Mac26x?

Originally Posted by the_sphincter

have you taken into account that using newton's law of universal gravitation, the acceleration due to gravity is greater as you move closer to the earths core

Actually, Jam, a very credible study recently indicated that the long-held notion that orange keels maximize the rankine-hugoniot relation may be incorrect, and that the optimal colour is actually more like a deep red. The selective reflection of low frequency electromagnetic radiation in the region of the keel less than six feet below waterline was found to partially ionize the water passing over the keel, and the resulting electrostatic field generated between keel and water created a greatly increased righting moment. The study also found that using metallic potassium in place of conventional antifouling greatly increased the effect.

Sphincter, I would think the distance from keel bulb to planetary centre would be a fairly significant factor, but it's also important to consider the effect of the strong nuclear force in this case. On the scale of ten feet, intra-nuclear attractions within the atoms in the keel could make a significant difference in the ability of the boat to right itself. Definitely a much more important factor than distance from CG to CB. Seawater is much superior to lead in this regard.

So what do you guys think? Shall I try coating my hull with red paint and potassium to make it more stable, or would it be better to cut my keel off and fill the bilge with seawater? The ideas seem about equally credible to me.

(BTW, for the scientifically challenged, metallic potassium bursts into flame upon contacting water.)

[the_sphincter]

Let me give some background before I go into this. Seawater absorbs all light except for a bluish-greenish color. This is in the 490 nm (nano-metre) wavelength.

The orange color that is applied to the undersides of some high performance racing yachts absorbs all light except that in the 590 nm wavelength. When the 490 nm wavelength from the seawater strikes the orange paint which reflects only the 590 nm wavelength, since the light is underwater, the Robbins effect comes into play, and so the orange paint on the keel reflects the light in a wavelength of 590-490 = 100nm. At this wavelength, the frequency of the reflected light is 3000 terahertz. This also happens to be the natural harmonic frequency of a molecule of h20. The eigenvalue for water this particular wavelength is 4.356(10^-7). With this amount of energy being absorbed by every water molecule that gets hit, the unique polar nature of water causes it to spontaneously reverse polarity for a fraction of a second. In doing this, the h20 molecule effectively knocks the sodium cation off of the chloride anion. Using the basic theory of periodic trends, you can see that the the sodium ion is in the same family as potassium (note: metallic potassium and sodium are highly reactive and burst into flames. potassium and sodium ions however do not). As marshmat stated:
"Actually, Jam, a very credible study recently indicated that the long-held notion that orange keels maximize the rankine-hugoniot relation may be incorrect, and that the optimal colour is actually more like a deep red. The selective reflection of low frequency electromagnetic radiation in the region of the keel less than six feet below waterline was found to partially ionize the water passing over the keel, and the resulting electrostatic field generated between keel and water created a greatly increased righting moment. The study also found that using metallic potassium in place of conventional antifouling greatly increased the effect."
This free (not associated with a chloride ion) sodium ion works much the same way as the potassium does and generates an electrostatic field between the keel and the water, substantially increasing righting moment without increasing mass or drag. This increased righting moment means that TP52's don't need reef points in their sails.

I hope you can understand my explanation. I would recommend that you all (who haven't done so already) go to school and take some quantum physics classes. These will explain to you how these interactions take place.
Good day all.

[TP 52 Defender]

"So how does the notion of cabin top shape and capsize recovery instead of unreasonable efforts of capsize avoidance compare to the confused consensus of the east coast naval architects and designers who brought us the TP52s."

This "shape difference” has nothing to do with righting ability (0%). It does however have everything to do with interior volume measurements and headsail sheeting styles (several boats have standard sheeting with in-haulers while the rest have transverse sheeting).

Once again we witness Frank talking about things he has no (as in also 0%) knowledge of.

Other lies of Franks –
- TP 52 has Main reef point(s) (as well as a large inventory of sails).

“That incompetence was shown when I calculated the capsize risk ratio for a TP52 …”
- And as has been shown her and elsewhere math, much like sailing, is not your strong suit.

“At least the first two generations were fraudulently portrayed as ocean worthy …”
- And yet Rosebud is still out here winning buoys and distance races.

“… also have retractable foils – centerboards – which have always been favored by NYYC – inspite of what those MIT boys will tell you.’
- No they do not.

- Mast rake is independent of boom end heights – you actually need to go look a few boat but even you could figure out where your wrong here.

- What is a retractable sail? The TP 52 have always used Code Zeros and MHG’s


Once again Frank – go take a sailing course and LEARN something anything ….

Your entire sailing knowledge level is just above novice and your knowledge about the TP 52’s is less than that. Care to learn put you motor sailor on its trailer (the only reason it has water ballast by the way) and come to the Key West feeder race – it would be an education for you ………

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by usa2

do you understand what a racing boat is?

I think of Mac26x vessels (and TP52s) as race trainers and not race boats per se. However, any designer (even an amateur) can break out the Boat Data Book or apply a ratio and modify the sail plan to turn a Mac26x or TP52 into what is commonly thought of as a race boat. Sail area tends to define race vessels among the common thinkers.

However lets think outside of the box. (does that expression come from sailing?) Thinking outside of the box rule – I think it may. Anyway lets say that all sailboats are race boats. This is what distinguishes a sailboat from a powerboat. The sail plan and sails are modified and when serious the bottom is prepared by wet sanding, waxing, etc but even a square rigger is a racer and every time two sailboats are headed in the same direction under sail it is a race.

The racing component is what makes sailboats different from power boats and justifies specialists in sailboat design. It also is the reason to keep mould sets and have 15 years minimum of a production run. When two sailers of similar kind head in the same direction the racing is especially fun. By this production run notion, TP52s – no generation of which has been produced longer than a year and a half - are very poor race boats. I14s, 509s 49ers, Tasars, J24s, Cal 40s, Thunderbirds, yes even Mac26x vessels and Catalina 30s are excellent racers owing to volume of production and length of production runs. Hence the shutting down of production of the X vessels in the USA owing to Jim Teeters is so troubling and the willingness of Roger MacGregor to allow out of country yards to produce them so reasonable.

If you see even part of this argument then you will understand that the TP52s are ships for fools. They represent a sick game that involves taking wealth from folk who will eventually become power boaters or worse golfers and taking the natural sailing abilities I believe many are born with, killing those, and replacing them with so much Bravo Sierra that intervention, such as this thread becomes necessary.

[the_sphincter]

Mighetto you have not addressed the quantum dissociation ratio which is generally used by designers as a quantitative tool to qualitatively analyse any boats given racing ability. This is an equation which takes into account the sail area, displacement, draft, center of gravity, reynolds number, rankine-hugoniot relation, strouhal number, and weber number. This equation is tested by derivation, and then solved using a gaussian solution method on a Cray X1E supercompyter to determine the optimum foil color. A similar equation called the stephens-zhu ratio (named after yacht designer olin stephens and particly physicist whe zhu) takes into account all of the variables from the quantum dissociation ratio, but also includes the center of boyancy at various angles of heel. This is calculated using a beowulf cluster employing groups ultra SPARC IV processesors and connected via quad channel fibre outputs, which excel in the vector processing that the stephens-shu ratio requires. This ratio is used to determine the fastest hull color. Problems occur when awl-grip doesn't manufacture a particular color, in which case they have to be custom mixed to ensure the greatest speed and decrease the energy required to obtain 4th mode.

[TP 52 Defender]

TP 52's are not production boats nor are they One designs - so the fact that the molds change almost from boat to boat is not surprising. 14's & 505's are not from the same moulds either - "Facts" try using them sometimes Frank. While it is true any sailboat can race not all sailboats are race yachts to claim this to be the case is to show a lack of all logic skills ....

Frank for a small fee I can try to get you abord a 52 durring a sail check, calibration or practice - but you must keep quiet and learn, interested?

[marshmat]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Anyway lets say that all sailboats are race boats. This is what distinguishes a sailboat from a powerboat....
The racing component is what makes sailboats different from power boats and justifies specialists in sailboat design....

Frank, a 14-foot Springbok with a 20hp outboard can outrun just about any production sailboat, whether it's a "race" boat or not, for under $5,000. What makes sailboats different from powerboats is that sailboats have sails, while powerboats generally use engines instead.
Sailboats as a class are not all "racers". Indeed, almost all will never exceed ten knots in their entire life. When we talk about racing here, most of us are using the term to refer to stuff like the Sydney-Hobart, etc. and not to friendly race-ya-to-the-dock competition.
How would you explain the APBA Factory series: definitely racing, definitely production craft, and definitely powerboats?

Sphincter, I was hoping you might advise on my dilemma- the potassium antifouling or cutting off the keel, mentioned above?

[Shife]

Originally Posted by mighetto

USA2



This is a hypotheses. It would be supported by finding say one Mac26x that has been rolled over. You will find none. The X is stable on her side, she probably can not be rolled over owing to the solid flotation in her sides and with sails up it is extremely unlikely that you could ever pull her past 90 degrees.

Hey Frank, I found a McCrap26x that rolled over. Do I win a prize?

[the_sphincter]

Mighetto or Whatever the f#@k your name was/is: Yeah, look at that picture. It's floating. It just needs the barge to keep the mast above water to keep it from going turtle. Stable? I think not. Dangerous? Yes.

[marshmat]

Shife, is it just me, or does the Mac in that photo appear to have capsized under power, with its mainsail lowered and tied to the boom, still in its cover? So the boat didn't even have its sails up when it flipped?

[julleras]

Originally Posted by marshmat

The study also found that using metallic potassium in place of conventional antifouling greatly increased the effect.

You've got to be kidding. Since school -I used to be a chemical engineer- I've never seen metallic potassium: it is kept in oil to avoid spontaneous combustion in the air into K2O...

I suppose you could have a hull made of Potassium.. it dissintegrates underway making it the ideal antifouling ever...

[marshmat]

we were indeed kidding, juan.... the idea seemed about as credible to me as making a sailboat more stable by cutting its keel off and filling its bilges with seawater. Just fuelling what has proven to be a rather fun fire....

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by marshmat

Shife, is it just me, or does the Mac in that photo appear to have capsized under power, with its mainsail lowered and tied to the boom, still in its cover? So the boat didn't even have its sails up when it flipped?

You are indeed a gentleman. I am told by my MacGregor Brothers that Sailing Anarchist Posters are SAPs, this being pronounced exactly as Larry Ellison pronounces it. Shife's photo is in reference to the 2002 Drunken Boaters case that Jim Teeters went out of his way to become an expert witness for. The boat was never on trial but Teeters attempted to make that so and no one will convince me that the halt of production in the USA wasn't owing to Teeters involvment in the case. When the Director or Research for US Sailng chooses to get involved, business insurance carriers take note.

Today Teeters has been totally discredited, Taylor's expert testimony having done him in, and his pathetic letters to Seahorse International trying to justify LPS TP52 box rules being now marginalized almost completely. To say that politics isn't part of boat design is to ignore reality. The yacht clubs are full of folks like Cunningham who deal by bribe and threat and manipulate courts of law and legislative bodies for wrong doing. Just to clarify for those who still hope for Sailing Anarchy, Cunningham represented district 50 in San Diego. Even if not a member of SDYC his mode of operation is the reason, I do not live there even though my family has property there.

Frank L. Mighetto

[DLackey]

Originally Posted by mighetto

is to ignore reality.

Finally. Something at which you are an expert.